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Paul Copeland Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand 20 December 2000 - tape 1 (55 mins. 10 secs)
Paul Copeland interviewed at Watsonia Barracks, 20th December 2000 by Ina Bertrand. Now, can you start off by telling us where and when you were born? Yes, I was born on 29th October 1962 in Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria. And you have lived in Victoria then most of your life? I have, right up till a couple of instances where I lived in Malaysia and the A.C.T., but for most of my life I have been actually living in Victoria. Ok, and your education? Education, I went to Broadmeadows High School. Left there with a Fourth Form Certificate. And you got work? I worked for a shoe warehousing firm, along with a chain of shoe stores and supplied and distributed shoes to the K Mart Shoe Department. Right, so were you just waiting to be 18 to join the army or how did you come about … how did it come about that you joined the army? Well, first of all, I left school because I really wasn't interested in it and later on down the track, I felt I could do something a little different than unloading trucks and loading up forklifts and things like that, so I thought I would try for the Air Force first - seeing as my father was in the Air Force - and I was 17 at that time. They said I was too young, so then I tried again 6 months later and got into the army, so, that is how I got in the army. When you went into the army, did you have a communications type goal, or did that happen later? There is two points for that one. The first one being when I was younger the old Citizens' Band Radio at the time was going around and I had a very strong interest within the HF radio and things like that. After I turned 17/18 that sort of waned a bit, along with the times, but the other one was that I went to the Army Recruiting Office and I saw a fellow sitting there with a pair of headphones on a desk with a Morse key and I said, "that's the job I want." So you knew right from the beginning which area? Mm. So, what are the steps along the way to be coming trained for this sort of role? In communications within the army? Mm. Basically, firstly you have got to go through (??2.4) In those days it was for 3 months and during that period of time you were psychologically tested for aptitude. I was only suitable for 4 corps. Obviously I wasn't one of the smarter ones, and that was for artillery, medical, catering and that was about it. So, I had to fight to get where I was and I had to do a Morse Code aptitude test which I passed with flying colours and almost ended up as a EW Operator. So, yeah, that is what I had to do. Actually pass a Morse Aptitude Test prior to being allotted into Signals. And the rest of the training? The rest of the training I did 6 months down here in Watsonia prior to posting to 103 Signal Squadron in Townsville. The training here was basically a 4 month radio course, very intense. Most of it was taken up with Morse Code transmit and receive. Mostly receive. Technical equipments, operation of equipments, propagation theories, setting up vehicles, battery charging, the whole gambit of technical sort of specialist communications equipment operation. Does it give you job qualifications outside the army as well? Yes and no. It all depends what sort of business that you are going into. But essentially back in those days, you probably would have got work working for the Antarctica or ships or some sort of communications - out to oil rigs, for example, that sort of line of work. But nowadays, now with satellite and high rates of data and band with and broad band and all that sort of thing, it has more or less been accepted as an information, technology and telecommunications business and trade, so. I have seen it actually grow from sending Morse Code to sending high rates of data and information flow. Can you just sum up your various appointments, just so we get an overall view about your career so far? Ok. I enlisted in the Australian Regular Army on 18th March 1981. After my training down here at Watsonia as a radio operator, I was sent to the 103rd Signal Squad in Townsville, Queensland, of the Operational Deployment Force. In particular, in 1982, we were actually packed and warned we had to go to the Falklands, but we didn't get there. Probably just as well, because we didn't have any cold weather gear, it was mainly tropical weather gear that we had, so I don't think a mosquito net would have lasted too well around Port Stanley. But, eh, moving along from that, I was then posted after 5 years up there to 135 Signal Squadron, which was a strategic communications unit, that was based in Canberra, in Russell Offices, so I worked within there. After that I was posted to the Second Signal Regiment down here in Watsonia for 12 months and I was mainly employed as a Crypo … or Crypographic Non Commissioned Officer, or Corporal at the time. After that, I expressed a desire to go to Special Forces, so I was selected to go to 126 Signal Squadron which was part of the First Commando Regiment and trained in special warfare there. I was actually subsequently promoted to Sergeant when posted there. I 'stuck my hand up' in 1992 to go to Cambodia. I went up and did the training. I got taken off the training for some reason or another, but towards the end of that year I managed to get onto a language course and did a commair linguist course for basic speed and listening, Grading I, and subsequently in March 1993 I was posted to Cambodia as part of the (force??6.4) Communications Unit - United Nations Transitional Authority in Cambodia. Moving from there I was actually seriously injured in a motor vehicle accident over there. That is another story. But basically I was medically evacuated back to Australia with a RAAF Hercules team. After 4 months of convalescing, I was then posted to 6 Signal Regiment, which was a strategic communications relay station located down here in Watsonia again and commenced a different lifestyle so to speak within that particular job. It was basically message switching, circuit switching and looking after a large exchange of data and telegraph type traffic that was going to and from all around Australia and overseas within a strategic network. I was then seconded to 108 Signal Squadron in 1995 in April as the Training Warrant Officer and Supervisor, Communications. I was also sergeant at this stage and I took a reserve team up to Tyndall, to participate in (??7.6) '95 and then came back from there. I was placed onto a manager's course and then subsequently posted to the multi-national force and observers in the Sinai in Egypt. And I spent 7 months over there and returned on 10th June 1996, the same day that the Black Hawk disaster occurred, which I lost a few friends from that. And posted to the Seventh Signal Regiment, Electronic Warfare in Kabala, in Toowoomba, Queensland. I did 18 months up there. On November 1997 I was then posted to H Signal Regiment, which is a reserve signal regiment in Sydney and spent 2 years there. As of November 1999, I have been posted down here as part of the Combined Arms Training and Development Centre, 4th Development Cell, located down here at the Communications Training Centre. Anyway. That gives us a framework to talk within I think. There's lots and lots of things that we would like to hear more about. One of the things I would like you to talk about is just what it is like living as a soldier. For instance, when you were in your early appointments, were you leaving on the base? Yes, I was. There were occasions in Townsville where I lived out with friends and then moved back in again, but eh … So talk a little about what it is like living on a base. Living on a base is probably quite different to what you normally do in civilian life. Unlike universities where they have dormitories and things like that, we have a similar sort of set up here. However, in those days we were 4 to a room, stinking hot weather, tropical weather. You had a fan going all day just to keep yourself cool. Basically you are up 6.30 in the morning, 7 o'clock in the morning, breakfast, down for a parade, do a parade, off to physical training, come back. Basically the room was your bed and your trunk and your wardrobe and that is where you lived out of. And when you got the opportunity you went out into the town, but eh … Did you always go out in your uniform? No, never, not in Townsville. Right. It is probably not a smart thing to do. The civilians up there - not all of them, but some of them - tend to have a dislike towards the army up there, but realistically you go out there and try and make the most of it and the best of it. You can get lonely some times, but you have your mates there sticking by you and you build up a pretty good camaraderie. What about routine things like laundry? Laundry, yep. Yeah, you do your own. Some people got lazy, they used to go into town and see the lady at the laundromat there and she used to do a full basket full of clothing for them after they came back from bush and it was pretty smelly and that. But yeah, you had your own washing machines, you had your own clothes dryers, or clothes lines and things like that, so that is what you basically did. Just day to day chores, looking after yourself, cleaning your clothes, cleaning your boots, ironing your uniforms, living in a room. We had a club there, so that was fine. You could go down there and have a few beers. Eating in a mess hall? Eating in a mess hall and basically just living on the base like that. Right, was there a canteen on the base? There was a canteen yes, and there was gym facilities, so if you got bored you go down and play a game of squash or something like that or life weights or go for runs and things like that, so, yeah. You are basically living a soldier's life when you are living on the base. A very physical life too by the sound of it. It can, yes it can be, it depends on what sort of person you are, but the majority of us got out there and did things and played squash, went and did weights, went for runs, things like that in our spare time. Ok, who lives on the base and who doesn't? People who normally live on base are single people, both men and women. There are a lot of senior NCO's that I notice in the messes that live on board now that have been either married, separated or divorced. So, there are those sorts of people as well that live on the base. It is cheaper to live on the base, rather than living outside and renting. Do you pay board? Yes you do. Aha, so that comes out of your pay? That comes out of your pay, yeah. There is a fallacy going around that a lot of people out there seem to believe that we get everything given to us, but I can assure people out there that we certainly pay our way. Your uniform, is that provided for you or do you have to that? The actual polyesters that you get, that is the short sleeve and long sleeve and when I joined up we had battle dress, that is your initial issue, so it is up to you after that to replace those items of clothing, including new black shoes and your black parade boots. But things like camouflage fatigues that we wear, or the old greens that we used to wear, jungle greens, they were actually replaced by the system due to wear . Crawling around the ground outside for example or playing with batteries watching them dissolve or whatever. It may sound like a silly question, but I have been talking to people from other wars you see where the system was different. It is good to hear what it is like now. Oh, ok, yeah. So different from the way it used to be. Ok, when did you stop living on the base? Eh … probably, well whilst I was Canberra we were all housed up at Gary Hostel, which was in Northborne Avenue, and that was more or less living in lines or barracks for us, but eh … moved out a couple of times just to get some independence for myself. Try and learn to cook my own food, but, realistically I stopped living in the barracks at about 1990/91 - so it is about 10 years off and on. Then I moved out, upon promotion to sergeant, because they had no room here, and moved back in and yeah, I could probably say realistically I stopped living in … I should go back there, I stopped living in around about April 1995, when I started living with my fiance. Right, now obviously the area that you can tell us most about, that is quite different from other people's experiences, is the various peace keeping missions and so on. Em, your first trip overseas was to Tonga? Yes, that is right, yes, we went to Tonga in eh … . Can you describe what that was like? Yeah, that was quite good. We actually mainly … . because I was Specialist Communications team that we were deployed over there with a company, sorry a platoon of 1 Aria First Battalion Royal Australian Regiment and we went over there on exercise for The United States Marine Corps, with the first MEU or the first Marine Expeditionary Union or Battalion. They had just come back from the Gulf War at that stage and were operating with the Tongan Defence Service, along with us, and we had some Kiwis there as well. But basically the three main players were the United States Marine Corps, ourselves and the Tongan Defence Service.. We went over there, did an exercise on a joint perspective, deployed to the Island of Awa, exercised there for a while and then came back and did this huge march through Tonga Tafu, or the main island, and Nikoulofa I think was the name of the town and we had to go through there and spoke to the civilians. And we had just been out bush about 10 - 12 days at that stage, so it was eh, it was different. That was just exercises, military exercises? That was just military exercises. We did provide some civil aid to the community there and those of us that were medically qualified as patrol medics, not really specifically myself, but a mate of mine, went off and deployed with the United States Navy medical team, actually provided medical assistance to the local villages there. Can you explain what it is like on military exercises? What this entails? A lot of preparation to start with. A bit of excitement as well, particularly if you are going overseas. Going to the Duty Free shop. And eh, yeah, buying up on some things you have missed out on. Going over to … are you talking about overseas or within Australia? About Tonga. Describe Tonga. Ok, well going over there was a great excitement for us because it was probably the first overseas trip that we had all been on, so, you know, a bit of … I wonder what it is like over there, I wonder what the food is like, I wonder if it is going to smell, I wonder what the girls are like, I suppose. Em … just typical solider things really, but yeah. And what did you find? When we went over there? Was the food ok? It was dark when we landed there. We were put over there on a C130 Herc. Eh got off and they had the press there and taking photos of us and we thought we were movie stars and jumped on the back of a ute and basically travelled 26K into the local town. It was a typical south west Pacific sort of scenario, I suppose. A little bit strange to us because we didn't know where we were. We were a little bit disorientated, particularly the night time. So what was the military exercise? Were you testing weapons or were you talking … ? Eh, basically we were testing inter(??17.1) with the Americans and the Tongan Defence Service in a time of war. Ok. Em … and the following year, you went to Vanuatu? Yeah, Vanuatu. That was a very different purpose wasn't it? Yes, that was for a defence (??17.4) and basically, because we used to be on 4 hours' notice to move or standby at any time, that was the luck of the draw of going to the Special Forces Unit. We had all the satellite equipment and all that sort of thing at the time. And the only unit that was deployable at a minute's notice and when the cyclone hit … I think it was … I cant remember the name of the cyclone now. Betsy. Betsy, that's the one. Cyclone Betsy hit Vanuatu they asked the Australian government to actually assist and the next thing I know I was going in there to pick up chairs, because I was the Master of Ceremonies at a mate's wedding that day and the officer, the Operations Officer came up to me and said, "What are you doing?" I said, "Loading up tables and chairs for Johnnie's wedding." "Ah well, but I think you are game." I said," Why is that?" He goes, "The plane is waiting for you, off you go." So I flew up to Sydney and then flew up to Okie from there, picked up the helicopter crew and we flew over to Vanuatu. How many of you? Roughly about 14. It was a 14 man detachment, that was including 4 pilots, ground crew and 2 airborne AME medics and myself. And what were you able to do when you got there? When I got there? Set up a satellite link back to Australia. The town … the actual country itself wasn't that badly devastated, although you can see, if you go into the remote areas that a lot of things got blown away like schools and things like from the actual cyclone destruction powers … destructive powers, but eh … what I did was once I set up a satellite link I was always pretty bored, so I used to … I got sent out on to the patrol boat one night, which is a Fremantle class. It was overladen with rice and blankets and things like that and I was just a little bit concerned. And the next morning we got into a boat and ferried it out to an island which just had this huge old volcano sticking out of the ocean floor and people living on the hillside of that and went out there, the chopper came in and all I did was just prepare the underslung loads for it and marshall them in and clear the LP for them. So that is what I was basically doing, helping them out with that. Were you actually ready to go at a minute's notice like that? Are you required to be? I was required in the particular unit, yes, to deploy at a moment's notice and there has been a number of cases … well another case that we had for Bougainville in the first instance in 1990. I was meant to be going out to dinner with my folks, a big family reunion. I think it was my mother's birthday actually and eh … we took all this communications equipment out to the RAAF base so they could fly it up. They were going to take their own communicators to Bougainville for the South Pacific Peacekeeping Force, but when we came back, a phone call came back and said, "What are you doing here?" We said, "Well we were told to come back here" and they said, "No, you are going with the equipment, the plane is waiting for you." So, back out we went. I just had to ring up my folks and say, "Don't worry about me, I don't know when I will be home, I will see you later." And because of the operational security you couldn't tell them anything. And of course my Dad tried to question me and but I just said, "Look I cant tell you, I have got to go, see you later." The next thing I know I was sitting on a Herc with an M16 and a pistol and all our gear thinking, where are we going? And that time you ended up in Bougainville? I was meant to go to Bougainville, but they got probably turned off at the early stages, so we sat around RAAF Base, Richmond, waiting to go and it never happened. They never called, right, ok. Now getting back to Vanuatu, you were awarded a commendation. What was that about? Ah well … I just think that probably a majority of the blokes would have got it, I don't know. But I got this thing sent through the mail to me, but eh … Where did you live when you were in Vanuatu? We didn't live too harshly, put it that way. We were put up at a (?? 21.1) holiday resort and it was quite a nice treat actually. But, there were times, like I said, I was living on a patrol boat eating yams and whatever it was and sweet potato. So you take the good with the bad. And moving on again, your first peace keeping mission was in Cambodia? Yes, that was in Cambodia. So, tell us about why that happened. What you were required to be doing then. Basically I was … the actual mission itself was to bring peace to Cambodia after years of fighting, since the 1979 capitulation of Pol Pot, or the Pol Pot regime to the Vietnamese and what they did was that they had a communist Vietnamese government in there for some time, there was a protracted guerilla war going on for that … all over the period of time, they had roughly 3 factions fighting against each other. A Nationalist one, a Royalist one, the government of the day and the Khmer Rouge, so basically it was time to sit down, talk peace and start helping Cambodia go back to a peaceful country. That is what we were sent there for, the United Nations, was to actually you know allow and facilitate free and fair elections for Cambodia and that was mainly the United Nations task at the time. Our task ,as the force communications unit ,was actually to provide the communications for the command control of the 22,000 strong peace keeping force that was over there. Right, so what would be a normal day's activities for you doing that? Ah, I don't think I had a normal day. There wasn't such a thing, righto. No, to be honest with you, I was never bored there. Right. Yeah. Was it all communications work you were doing there or did you get or did you get called into other things? Well my particular job was the troop side and so I was really looking after the operations side of it, plus the administrative side, looking after the soldiers of the troop. Our soldiers, within my sector, in Sector 6, were spread from Cape Kong, which bordered Thailand up to Shreamble, which is up the northern part near the Bokal mountain area, over to the east of Cambodia, 2 border detachments there in Vietnam, 1 in Campot where Kelly Wil … not Kelly Wilkinson, where Kevin Wilson was taken and Tokaya, up further north, off one of the arms of the Maikon River. So, and down at (??23.4) which is the southernmost port and the largest port area of Cambodia. So that was our section. You were trying to coordinate all this? Well coordinating it, just making sure the troops were being looked after. I used to fly around and inoculate them. They trusted me. As a matter of fact, they reckoned I gave better needles than the medics. And just making their health and morale was up to speed. Giving them letters, making sure the radio nets and the detachments and all that were technically up to speed and had enough rations and water to hold them over and all that sort of administrative sort of work in that regard as a Platoon Sergeant or Troop Sergeant. And you were there from 14th March to 20th May? Yep, very short. Yes. Very intense by the sound of it Um, it was. It was the lead up to the elections. Because the elections were coming up in early June and it was a very tense time. During that period of time we were starting to dig in, we put in barbed wire around the place, that was happening before I got there. But more so, we improved and upgraded the defensive positions. We had 2 bunkers installed. Blast walls put in. Mainly because the UN personnel and installations were being targeted by the factions, mainly, well the Khmer Rouge were one of them, but also the government of the day, which was the Cambodian Peoples Forces or the Cambodian Peoples Armed Forces (CAPAF) were actually being a little bit non-cooperative with the UN. So, were you defending the UN, rather than … ? .. than the people … ? … looking after the elections? Em, well defending ourselves and at the same time as defending ourselves, being vigilant of what was actually occurring with ourselves. We had other countries that sent Italians over there and infantry, so they provided the security, but realistically what we were doing for ourselves as a communications people, was protecting ourselves as well, so, that was all part of it. But you didn't last through to the election did you? No. So what happened? Eh … we were coming back down to Sentaville one day (??25.3) from Phnom Pen. It was raining, probably the beginning of the monsoon season, and there was 3 blokes on the side of the road. They were armed and they wanted to pull us over. So we stopped and my mate driving, Mintie, didn't want to stop, but I told him to stop, so I got out, because I had just about had enough of it at this stage, because they just kept on trying to stop cars and get money off them and eh, the same at bridge crossings and things like that so I got out, cocked my weapon, went into action and just pointed at this bloke's chest and 'cos they were armed as well and as soon as they saw me do that and I told them in their own language in no uncertain terms to go away and stop bothering us. They scarpered. So I got in the car, unloaded my weapon, got in the car, took off down the road and probably about 10 minutes later after that - I think Budda got us back - because we were sliding down the road sideways in the wet, out of control, and we hit an oncoming Russian sandtruck and the impact was basically where I was sitting at the door. We bounced off that, spun around down the road and came to a stop at a mango tree, just missed a house actually, just missed it and yeah, that was the end of that for me. You were badly injured? Yeah, I had a fractured femur in 3 places. I had my bone sticking out of the back of my leg, smashed my teeth in, my arm, my elbow. So were you looked after by army medical personnel or by the local civilian ..? Ah, yeah, that's another story. Well actually what happened was after, not long after the smash, we were getting actually robbed by the locals and they thought it was a great old time because the blood pissing out of my mouth and they thought it was a great opportunity to smash the back windows in and take all our stuff, so in the back we were taking down ammunition for the machine guns that we had down there, extra rations, mail, spare parts for the satellite terminal, things like that you know, and clothes. Eh they were going right through the whole lot. Not long after that I decided to look over my shoulder and I did notice there were some Bang Abashi civilian police that were there and I was just standing there watching the whole show going on. The next thing I know there was a backfire. I thought we were being shot at, but we weren't, it was actually a Russian made ambulance, made in the 1950's I would suggest and it was the Bulgarians had turned up and this doctor said, "Oh you come back with me in my ambulance." I said "No thanks, I will wait here, I know what is wrong with me, I just need an IV and a painkiller and I think the Australians are going to come and get me." And he said, "Oh, you don't want to get in my ambulance?" I said "No, I don't want to get in your ambulance, I am waiting for the Australians, but I will need a painkiller and an IV." So, because I wouldn't get into his ambulance he wouldn't give me an IV or a painkiller and … it has got to be appreciated that over there, in countries and things like that that you work with, there are various levels of professionalism and competency and I wasn't really trusting it and the only people that I would trust would be the Australians, the Kiwis, the Brits or the Canadians. Eh, so, that was it. He was about to take off. Because the door was partly open, there was a, you know, a huge fella that looked like eh the flea out of the Warner Bros. cartoons, had the untwirling moustache and he was about 7 foot tall. He walked straight into the door and I don't know what he said, but it was in Bulgarian and slammed the door back into my leg that was protruding out. And, that is when I started being a little bit upset. Prior to this the Australians had rocked up and put a cordon around the vehicle. They had their flat jackets on and the webbing and the weapons and not taking anything more from the locals basically and one fella I saw, the Sapper, he came racing up, he was ready to butt stroke him with his weapon. I said, "No, don't do that, we really don't need to have an international incident on our hands at this moment." I said, "Get that doctor back here and tell him to give me an IV and a painkiller because I am going in and out of shock, and I know I have broken the largest bone in my body and if I don't get something soon I am going to die." With that sort of urgency he went back and the doctor came back with his hands up in the air as though he was surrendering to me and said to me, "I must give you a painkiller, I must give you IV." I thought to myself, oh it is good to see he is seeing my side of the story, but I was a bit curious as to see why his hands were stuck up in the air. The next thing I know, the digger that I asked to go and get, I asked to go and get the doctor stuck his head around. "Is everything alright now Sarge?" I said, " Aha, yeah mate.." He had the actual weapon in the small of his back so he brought him back under gunpoint basically and that was the only way you could do things over there half the time - it was the rule of the gun basically. How many different nationalities were you trying to work with? Oh, I just really, I can't recall, but there was probably about 20 different nations. Was English the basic language? It was but, however, we had the French and some of the other African nations who could speak French, they would be speaking French over the radio or if they were Uruguayans for example, they would be speaking Spanish or whatever and things like that. So, yeah, there were language barriers. Definite language barriers. So, that was about it. The last thing of these I do recall is that the ambulance turned up and I was carried out and taken to hospital and 4 days later I was on a C130 Herc. getting out of there. But you went off on a second peace keeping mission? Yeah, I didn't learn from the first one, so, eh, yeah, I went to … How long between? How long between? Oh, gee, I would probably say just short of 2&#frac12 years - yeah 2&#frac12 years. And so in that time, what were you doing? In between? Yes. Recovering basically from the smash. It took a while? It took a while. It took me about a year to actually walk again. I had a rod in my femur, I got that taken out, then strived to get fit again on the promise I was going overseas again, so that is what I did. Were you on light duties during that time or were you completely off work? I was completely off work, I was hospitalise for a month. I was on convalescent leave for 3 months thereafter, so 4 months I was recovering and then I went back to (as I said before) 6 Signal Regiment where it was reasonably light work. They weren't going to send me back to Special Forces in my condition, so, yeah, it was relatively light work. Ok, did you have to prove that you were fit before you could go on this next mission? Yes I did. I had to have the stainless steel rod taken out of my leg for starters and I had to prove that I could do a basic fitness assessment, which was running 5 kilometres within - I think I did it in 24 minutes - plus em, you know, the situps and pushups and all that sort of thing, so, yeah, the basic fitness standard. Had you worked very hard for that, to get that fitness back? Yeah, yeah. On your own or with … ? Oh, I didn't have much help from the physio, which is the reason why I am being medically discharged next year, because it is basically all these injuries that have caught up to me, but, well I did have some physio, but it wasn't probably physio, physio I would like to see. I think it was more or less an intestinal sort of effort to get up there and run again and get fit again. Ok, alright, well tell us about this second peacekeeping mission. Where and why? Ok, I was a member of the 5th Australian Contingent to the Multi-national Force and Observers. (??31.7) was basically set about from 1979 to 1981 or negotiated around that period of time as a result of the Israelis occupying the Sinai Peninsula and then the Egyptians did a counter attack a few years later and the disputed area was … had a United Nations Emergency Force in between. That force was dissolved because of the actual hostile nature between Egypt and Israel and there was a Peace Accord struck at The Camp David Accord in 1982. From then on, roughly about 11 or 12 nations participated in that mission. In Australia's sense, we were one of the first ones there. We supplied the Rotary Wing Aircraft Unit, the helicopters from 1982 to 1986 and then we were withdrawn from there as a government decision and in 1993 or 1992 we re-entered the Sinai as headquarter staff and security staff. Mainly around the north camp. Ok, and your part in this? My part in this was I went over, I was the force Duty Officer or the force Duty Sergeant realistically working in the force Duty Centre and basically monitoring the operations of the force. Taking in reports, sightings, incident reports, assisting the medical evacuation of injured personnel, assisting with medical evacuation of injured and killed civilians who were treading on mines and things like that. A lot of liaison. When you say assisting communications for this, you were actually in the field doing so? No, I was actually in an operations sort of role, more so than communications. We had radio and all that sort of thing there, but everyone operated that and telephone links and things like that, but realistically, essentially we were force Duty Officers. And when I said assisting, means that we actually co-ordinated all the evacuations. We were actually the people on the ground, sitting behind a desk, co-ordinating it all with the various sectors, the various call-outs to say, for example, the French helicopter crew, or the sorry American helicopter crew or the French aircraft or the, you know, the force medical facility and things like that. Once again, many different nationalities. Yep. Very eh … a variation in language barriers. It was very difficult to talk to the Columbians. They had their own interpreters there, so we had to hope that there was an interpreter on shift within their TOC, they called it a TOC, Total Operations Centre. Americans were really no problem. Then the Fijians which was, they could speak English, but very limited sort of English, but they were good to get on with. So how did you come to do so much travelling? Whilst I was over there? Basically, once you did their 4 days on shift, you had 4 days off, so we made the most of where we were. Eh we went over to … well, going over to Israel on duty tours was part of it and that was going to the Embassy, the Australian Embassy over there and the Australian Embassy in Cairo for various matters, but realistically we made the most of the opportunity of the Middle East. We went to Cyprus, we went to Jordan, toured all of Israel, toured most of Egypt, went to England, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland and eh … How did you travel? Did you just hitch a ride on em Air Force planes or something? Eh … we didn't have it that easy, we had to pay our way, but eh … Were you using commercial aircraft? We were using commercial aircraft most of the time. If we travelled in Egypt and Israel we used our own Multi-national Force and Observer vehicle that we had. And that was just to get away from the camp and get out of the desert and see something different, so … What was the attitude of the locals there? Was it like it was in Cambodia or was it that you felt … unhappy about it? Um, yeah, totally different in comparison. There was a large threat in Cambodia. I can for myself I felt threatened and after speaking to a lot of the blokes that had been over there and the girls that they felt the same way. It was very tense, it was very threatening, whereas in the Sinai, it was very secure, and very quiet, not much was going on except the odd suicide bombing in Tel-a-viv, in Jerusalem. But the Bedouin people that were there were generally pretty good with the Info, they were used to us. They had been used to us for some years now. Do you think that was because they wanted you there? Yeah, I think in a way that the Egyptians benefited out of it because we actually had Egyptian workers working on a base, so they probably saw it as an employment in monetary sort of perspective and thought that it was a good thing to have there. I think, as well, with both of the two host nations which was Israel and Egypt that they probably saw it as a security buffer zone and that is what it was realistically. A buffer zone between the two countries and provided security where they didn't realistically have to. So it was security in 3 areas realistically for the 2 countries and for ourselves. Would you like to comment on what you see as the function of peacekeeping and why Australia should be involved? I think firstly with the function of peacekeeping I am a strong advocate of this. I think if you can prevent war, it is well worth going out there to try and stop it before it starts. If you've seen some of the people that really need a helping hand overseas, it really helps to know that you are helping them and providing a better life for them, and that is basically what you are doing. You are facilitating a better life and that is what peacekeeping realistically is all about. Bringing peace to a nation that has probably been at war with each other for so many years. Death, famine, destruction and people who are probably just tired of it and that is why peacekeeping is probably a good function to go with. So why should Australia get involved instead of just looking after our own? Why should we do? Well I would say everyone has got to contribute to world peace and there is no reason why we should be on our own in not doing it and to represent your country overseas on the United Nations and with eh … then my father of course … it was probably a proud thing for me. I think we represented our country and showed people that Australia too was interested in world peace and with that we were basically ambassadors for our own country providing a visibility to the other nations that, although we come from the land of down under, we are out there doing it with the other countries as well and putting a concerted effort. Does this mean that there is a kind of obligation to behave very responsibly and never lose your temper and those kinds of things because you are on show as a representative of Australia? I think that is probably about right, although sometimes it is very … to firstly control some emotion, I suppose, and some anger, particularly with some things that people have seen and what I have seen as well. But, yes, you are on show, and you go over there wearing your country's uniform and your country's flag on the sleeve of your uniform. You are seen as that representative, you are seen as that ambassador. Now if you care to not be as friendly and as outgoing and be obnoxious for example, well that reflects back on our country. So, I don't think it takes much for people to actually, for the soldiers in my particular situation, to realise that that is why we were there, was representing our country so therefore our conduct had to be of the highest standard. Do you think it always was or were there times when you were ashamed of it? Em … not so in the Middle East, but there was one instance that I saw in Cambodia, that I was … or a couple of instances that I wasn't really happy with and eh felt that they could have done it a little bit better or those people could have done a little bit better. Eh … yeah. What about … you wear a special UN uniform as well, don't you? We wear our own Australian uniforms. We wear a UN beret. So does the UN beret have any particular significance do you think with the populations of the countries you visit? They certainly recognise it. They know who you are, they know you are part of the UN. We wear it … well, when I was in Cambodia we were wearing the UN patches with our nation's flag on our uniforms. Same over at the MFO. And wearing their beret and their patch as well, but essentially in our own uniform. They recognise it and, in particular, the Cambodians knew that we were Australians. Did you feel in Cambodia, any kind of residue from the Vietnam conflict? Yeah. Feelings against Australia perhaps or pro Australia as a result? I think in the beginning, because we came over there in different uniforms this time, the camouflage ones rather than the jungle greens, they were a bit unaware. I have spoken to a couple of fellows that went to the Advance Mission. And that was … they were the first fellows that went over there in October/November '91 and they thought, when the Australians got off the aircraft with the UN berets and their camouflage uniforms, they thought they were the actual Spetznaz from Russia. … actually used to be there. And that is who they thought we were until they realised that we weren't ... different from them and that was where, I suppose, Australians started getting to be known around the country. But, em, yeah they certainly knew who we were. We certainly tried to do as much as we could to the local communities and help out where we could, particularly up in Banabong. They ran a kids sort of em community sort of group there as well. Provided them with clothing and toys and things like that, so … and Norma Hinchcliff was running that up there. And eh … that was just good to do those sorts of em assistance sort of programs. When did you come back from that June '96 I have got, is that right? Eh from Sinai or … ? Yes, from Sinai. Yeah, Sinai was June '96. Ok, so you have been back in Australia since then? You haven't done anything else? No I haven't ventured elsewhere unfortunately. I haven't gone to Timor, even though I would have liked to have, but eh, that is just the way it goes. You were involved with the Peacekeepers and Peacemakers Association, can you explain what that is? And who the members are and what you do? Right. The members … first of all The Association was raised on 24th October 1997 at Kalanga Pine Rivers RSL Club north of Brisbane. It was founded by about 7 people. It started off … it is still going at the moment, but it started off as a small sort of group of people that had common interests. First of all to promote and eh … promote a focus on peacekeeping operations and promote a focus on Australian Defence Force Personnel Philanthropic Organisations and the Police as well of what our contributions are to world peace. The second one is actually the … assist in the provision of welfare as well. We have had a lot of people that have come back from various missions that suffered from post traumatic stress disorder, mainly, a lot of them from Cambodia, a lot more from Rwanda, a number from Somalia. A lot of those sort of areas that a lot of killing was going on and those people are having a lot of problems and we are there to provide a focal point of contact for that and to facilitate them into the actual welfare system or the DVA welfare system. The other one is we organise ANZAC Day marches. We march every year on ANZAC Day in Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne and hopefully starting around Adelaide and Perth in the near future. We also facilitate and commemorate United Nations Day which we would like to see changed to Peacekeepers' Day, em, because of the sacrifices that are made by our service people on these missions. Eh … we are also in with the RSL and we are trying to start up some sort of lobby group to actually have some conditions changed for a number of items and issues. So it is the Peacekeepers and Peacemakers Section - like The Returned Nurses' Association? Uha, similar, yeah. The Australian … … a specialist function? Yeah, the Australian Peacekeepers and Peacemakers Association really specialises in people who have been involved in peacekeeping operations and peacemaking operations, peace enforcement operations since 1947. Do you have members going back as far as that? We did have 2 from eh … well, sorry, a number from the commission that was in Korea in 1951 I think it was? Right. Yeah, we had a couple of fellows from there. I think we had one from the first United Nations mission that was attended by Australia in 1947 which was in Indonesia. Uha. The (Good??4.2) Officers commission. Both men and women? Eh, not that far back, but we do have women in the Association, particularly from commissions from the last 10 years. Right. Em, yeah. It is not really evenly balanced but we certainly encourage women to join us, there is no problems with that and we certainly have our fair share of them. What sort of activities do you have? Well, Besides ANZAC Day? Besides ANZAC Day and UN Day? Well, basically we just have our (??4.8). Up in Brisbane they organise a couple of functions a year, getting together and picking some things like that. Just getting to know each other. But I find that these days a lot of people are working, particularly with our age group. Yes. The younger people are working, they are very busy, their spare time is more or less dedicated to families, so it makes it hard to time the two. And if we can just say, like ANZAC Day and UN Days are the days that we get together and have our functions, well, you know, if it is twice a year, well that is better than none. Well let's talk about families because you are married now and you have a child haven't you. When did you marry? I married when I got back from Sinai in September 1996. Right, well it must be very different being in the army as a married man than before, talk about the differences. I think the notable difference is the long periods of absence. Whilst you are sitting out there in the bush and in not so pleasant climates, and really, realistically roughing it a little bit, you tend to have your thoughts going back to your family. It never really used to worry me when I was single, but you tend to think oh yeah, I could be at home playing with my daughter or be home with the wife and think … I think my wife Rhonda gets very lonely when I go away. The 7 months certainly when I went away that she felt it in particular. Our daughter wasn't born then, so that was probably a good thing maybe, I don't know. Are there married quarters on the base? They are not essentially … on some bases they do have them on base, but eh, realistically our married quarters are very close by in proximity and eh it is a walk to work, or, if you are a bit lazy, drive, or if you feel inclined, ride.   Do you still socialise basically within the base or do you have feelers out into the civilian community around you? Well, because I come from Melbourne I have my family and friends down here, so I occasionally see them, but, yes, socially we socialise with people that we work with or on the base and I do that in the form of the Sergeants' Mess where I am a member of, so … yeah, that is probably the only outwardly social sort of thing I have with other service people, but eh outside, but not really, no. Are there any facilities for children on the base? Yeah they have on some bases, a day care centre. We certainly have swings and that here at the club. They have children's groups here on various days. They go for half days or in the mornings for a couple of hours and all the wives come in with the kids and they have things like (??7.5) days or they come in and make cakes and just have morning tea with each other and let the kids play with each other and things like that so, yeah, we have those sorts of things, but, eh … yeah. You are leaving the army next year you said? Medically discharged, yes. Right. How do you thing you will manage if you have been in the army this long since you were 18 and all your life has been centred around the army? What are your plans? Oh, well we have already bought a house down Torquay, so we have got that sorted out. Our finances are pretty well in shape and that is from advice that we get from Resettlement Seminars that they actually put you onto and they have been very handy in that. They really give you very good career transition training and advices. Probably the best thing about it. I am realistically prepared for it anyway. I have been preparing for it for now for nearly 12 months; since I have had the Xrays and they came back about my back and my neck and my hip and my leg and things like that and eh … it has been hard to adjust to that thought, but I think it will probably 12 months for me to get used to it when I get out. I don't think I will completely every forget about it, particularly when it was 20 years of my life. You still have friends that you have made here that will go on forever? I have made … that I have made for life. It is true what they say on those ads. Mind you, if I won Tattslotto, I wouldn't be here tomorrow!
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Victorians at War - Oral History Project