Victorians at War - Oral History Project

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Lester Marks Harradine Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand date - tape number tape length
Lester Marks (Harradine) interviewed at Dimboola on 23^rd January 2001. So, the first question is, where and when were you born? Well I was born in Bordertown in South Australia on 18^th August 1920 and when I was 8 months old I came to Dimboola and my grand … eh great aunt sort of adopted me and brought me up. And that is how the name … so you were born Lester Harradine Yeah Harradine but And your great aunt was … Yeah, well I took their name, sort of, from there on they called me Lester Marks, I have always been know as Lester Marks. Right, ok. But, of course, when I got married … you had to produce your right name, and our children have all the name Harradine, yeah. So, what about your childhood, tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, I was … lived in Dimboola, I was here till 19 … , we went back to Lillimur and I went to school there for 12 months and eh … and also at Bordertown, I went to school there for one year and eh … so, we came back to Lillimur for a while and I went to school there again and eh came back to Dimboola in 19 … I think it was 1928? No? It might have been … 19 … round about 1930 anyway. Right. I went to school ever since in Dimboola. Yes, Dimboola. So, did your aunt have other children with her? Yes she had 2 children, they were well in their, when I came to them they were well in their 20' s. Right, so you almost grew up like an only child then? Yes. And eh … at Dimboola, but as I say I went to Lillimur for a while, Bordertown, Lillimur again and back to Dimboola, but I have been here ever since and we lived with our like great grandparents for a little while and then we lived in the Dimboola area and right up till when I … How old were you when you left school? I was only 13 when I left school. What did you do then? I went to work … well they had tomato gardens around Dimboola, quite a few people grew tomatoes and I got a job with the tomato growers. What sort of job? Picking tomatoes and grading and also … Was this casual seasonal work then? Yeah, only for about 8 months and in the other 4 months you would have to do some casual work round the town, like mowing or something like that. But about 1936 I got a job with people by the name of Nortons and they had … they bought the vegetable garden just near the river. The Chinamen used to have it and so I got a job … that was a permanent job and I was with them until I went in the army in 19 … that was 1940 I think. Well that … all through the 30's there is the Depression, so it must have been pretty hard to get that kind of seasonal work. Yeah, it was very hard, you were lucky to get a job actually because eh … like the Depression, it was on the mid Depression and a lot of people were hard up for work, so I was lucky to get a job at that stage. Did they pay you lower wages because you were so young? Were you being paid like a child, like a … ? No, no … they were … like the … I was paid the same, at that stage, the same as the older ones, older people, yes. And eh … there were 3 of used to work around the garden and there was a manager and we, we of course, we worked, we had a permanent job all that time there. Right. Where were you when war broke out? Can you remember, can you remember the first time you were aware that there was a war on? Yeah, well that was 1939 wasn't it - September 1939, well, oh yes, realised there was a war on, yeah. Did you follow the progress of the war or did you read newspapers and watch … listen to the radio and so on? Oh yes, that's right, yeah, right …. Were you still living at home? Yeah, we were still living at home, we lived across the river at that stage, like here at Dimboola and eh … we had a sort of … it was like, quite a few people during the Depression, quite a few people lived in the vicinity of the river, like you know, and we had a sort of a cabin over the river at that stage and the eh … adjacent to the river and there was … things were pretty hard in those days, like all these travellers around, they call the swagman, they used to come through and eh camp round over near the river at different times, so … Was it a help working in the vegetable garden like that, so that you were able to get vegetables for instance? Oh yes, it was great because the eh … Mr Norton the chap that owned the garden, he had a fruit shop up the street and we used to get the carrots and parsnips and everything ready for him to take up to the shop you see and so it was, it was, you know, rather handy. It wasn't far away from home and you were over there, so it was good to have a permanent job. You were lucky. Did many of your friends join up? Yes, quite a few of the boys I used to knock around with, they all eventually joined the army. Who were the boys you used to knock around with? Oh, one was Bill Holmes? and eh he used to live here and there was one chap, oh and there was another boy, Danny Marks, he used to work there. He was in the army later. So you didn' t all join up together then, you didn't go along, to enlist together. No, no, no, no. So what made you enlist, why did you decide to go? Well, when you became of age, like we were that age you, they had a call-up as well you see, so like it … and eh first of all they … we went into camp in Bendigo - that was 1941 - and eh so eh, we were in camp at Bendigo for 3 months - and that is when, before the Americans came into the war, that was before Pearl Harbour back here - and we done 3 months in camp at Bendigo. Previously the unit we were in, they done 3 months at Hamilton, so I was in Bendigo and we eh went from there and when the … Before you leave Bendigo, tell us about Bendigo. What did the Bendigo camp look like? Oh well, it was at the Epsom Racecourse in Bendigo, just out of Bendigo. Right. And they had a grandstand there and that is where our unit, the headquarters of our unit. In fact we slept in the grandstand. Right. Our, our eh company. What - slept on the seating? Yeah, on the seats of the grandstand, yes. And they had, where the horses parade these days, I think Epsom is still … they still have races at Epsom and the … well as I say that was our parade ground just out in front of the grandstand. Right. How many people? What, in the army … ? Were in that camp with you? Oh I suppose it would be six, six or eight hundred, like at that stage. Yeah, a full unit. Right, what sort of training did you do? Well we were in the machine gunners, Vickers machine gunner and eh we used to do that training and you would also … do other training as well … you'd have to … you could go for a run around the racecourse, that's part of your fitness program and eh … and so it was quite handy. Bendigo was a nice place, we had … we used to go on leave in Bendigo, but eh, then after that, when the Americans came into the war, that was eh, just towards the end of 19 … what was that … 1941 wasn't it? Well when they eh said oh well, we, we went to Colac, they took us down to Colac and I was there for a while and eh … they said, oh well, we are going to Darwin so that is where we went from there, to Darwin. How did you travel? Yeah, we went by train from Colac up through Ararat, Dimboola, through to Adelaide and into Terowie, from there to Quorn and Alice Springs by train. And from Alice Springs to Larrimah you went by road transport convoys and from there on they had cattle trucks and eh on the train so we from Larrimah to Darwin we travelled in cattle trucks. Right, what did you find when you got to Darwin? Oh well we landed at Winnellie, a place called Winnellie, that is just a suburb of Darwin and we … we were only across the road from the Air Force aerodrome at Darwin then, and that is where we disembarked from the train and eh … so we were camped at Winnellie for a while and they said, oh well we, they picked out different parts of Darwin, like round the coast that they sent different troops, like deployed them around so that … they expected a raid of course, like that there was going to be a landing, like the Japanese were coming there. So we were at a place called Cameron's Beach and that was about … 5 or … 4 or 5 miles out of Darwin - it wouldn't be that far and then we were deployed around from Cameron's Beach right around to Darwin, like most of the troops. You mean you were camped at Cameron's Beach? Yeah, we were, that was where our guns were, but where our tents were was about 500 yards back in from the beach itself. Ok, so describe your camp please, just tents? Yeah tents, we had tents. We would have about 4 blokes to a tent. How big was the camp? How many men in the camp? Eh oh a full … there was a full platoon, that would be 30 or 40 men, like, you know. It sounds quite a small, a smaller … Yeah, machine gun. What was in the tent? Oh yeah, you made your own beds you see and eh … From what? Out of pandanas palms and then you had a … sort of made a sort of a palliasse sort of thing and then you had blankets of course. But you didn't need them, but … How did you make your bed? You made it in a sort of a … poles up and then … So you would cut off the leaves off the pandanas palm to get the stem? Yeah. And then what? Would you weave the leaves across the … between poles? No, no, it was just the … just laid those long poles along and then you would set your palliasse on top of that, yeah. Ok. And so you' d have, you had quite a few tents and of course you had to have a mosquito net, and you had that tied on top to say put the mosquito net down. The mosquitos were pretty prevalent. Mess tent? Mess tent, yeah, you had a mess tent. You had a cook, you know, that would look after you and there was a mess tent, a bit of a mess tent. Um. Water laid on? Yes, they' d cart the water, yeah … a tank and you had water trucks that used to bring your water, um. So, a toilet block too then? Yes, yeah toilet blocks, yes. Showers? Yes. Hot? Oh no, not really hot. Didn' t need them? No, no, you had a cold shower. What about medical facilities? Where were the nearest? Oh, you had your own RAP, like you could go to the RAP, you had like, with the mosquito bites you also had sandflies you see and I think the sandflies were probably worse than the mosquitos eh, caused quite a few, like tropical ulcers and things like that. Right. And did you have to take anti malaria medication there or not until you went further north? I just forget now, whether eh Darwin, like, you might have, although later on when I went up to the islands we had to take it then. You were really kind of waiting around in Darwin weren't you, waiting for something to happen? Yeah, at that stage, we got there at about the … January 1942 12^th January Right We arrived in Darwin. Well the first raid was on 19^th February. As I said we were stationed at Cameron's Beach, our eh … So what were you doing in preparation? You were expecting a raid, what did you do to prepare for it? Aw, we had, had slit trenches, had to have those and then out the beach we had our gun emplacements, like we had 4 guns at Cameron' s Beach looking out on Shoal Bay and all you had was a couple of apron fences out to sea like, you know, running along out there and eh … course at that stage they did expect there was going to be an invasion like, especially after the first raid and we were at Cameron' s Beach when the first, on that night, 19^th February. So they were expecting a land invasion … troops to land on the beach? Oh yes, yes. How did you know all this? Oh well, they tell you, like oh well, they had a raid on 19^th February - 2 waves of bombers came over and raided Darwin and they thought, seeing that they weren't too far away, like up at Timor, I suppose they thought that they were on the way down to try and invade Australia. So did your knowledge of the war and what was happening, did it come from your superior officers or did it come from just the rumours that fly around? Oh no, no, no. Our officer like, he was our platoon commander and he … you would get your information from him, like through your sergeant and … What was your rank at this time? I was a private, yeah. Well they call you, you were sort of a machine gunner and then when they … they changed us to infantry after that and we were privates then of course. Ok. Talk about the people you were with at the time. Did you have any special mates in that group? Oh yes we did, yes, like your … chaps who were in the tent with you , they were your mates all the time, you were all together, but when you were together in your tent, like you were sort of eh, really mates then like, four of us. Did you go on leave together? When we went on leave, when we left Darwin to come down south, well they gave you a bit of leave before you went back to camp. I was thinking more in terms of did you have time off each week or were you expected to be there 7 days a week? Rest days. Rest days, yes. Oh well, Sunday you would probably have a bit of a rest day but eh … What would you do on a rest day? Well you couldn't really do much, you'd just, perhaps you would read or something like that or you might … You couldn't have gone off into Darwin? No, you would have to ask for leave. Like on one occasion we eh … we went to Darwin on leave, that was before the first raid, we … they let us go in like there was a cinema in Darwin and there was 4 of us went in to by utility, to go to the films and we'd just about got into Darwin and the air raid siren went so the chap in charge said "Oh no we had better head back to our unit", so we didn't get to the pictures. Right. And it was only a false alarm. One of our own planes coming back and they thought it was an enemy plane? So how did you relax in camp? You said reading, what else might you have done? Oh read and eh … you would have a game of cards or something like that, you know. A pack of cards and … Could you swim in the sea? Beg pardon? Could you swim in the sea? Oh yeah, I don't think, they didn't advise you to do that because of the … the some, what do you call … they have tentacles and things like that. Jellyfish? Yeah. Octopus? Or there is a name for some others too, but they were prevalent around Darwin and you have got to be careful of them. But you could go in there for a swim sometimes. How did you cope with the climate change? Well, it was a bit hard for a while and in my case we were only there, we got there on 12^th January and 2 days later I went down with Dengue fever and I was in hospital for about 8 days, Berrima Hospital, yeah. How does Dengue fever affect you? Oh made you listless and you lost all faculties, sort of, you became weak and yeah … I didn't know what was wrong, you know. You mean like losing concentration? Temperature … Losing concentration? Yeah, temperature goes up, things like that. So I was taken by ambulance down to hospital. Did many of them get sick? Yes, a few, not you know, not everybody, but a few of them did, Berrima Hospital, even though it had a Red Cross on it, when the Japanese raided Darwin the first raid they apparently machine gunned the hospital in the first raid. Ok, well now I suppose I had better ask you about the first raid, the real raid. Did you know it was coming? Oh no, no, ' cos eh, as I said we were out at Cameron's Beach and on the first raid, that was 19^th February, I think it was about 10 a.m. in the morning, round about 10 o'clock and eh we were there and we saw these planes coming over, like you know in formation. Seemed to be a lot of planes and we just thought, oh, you know, might be the Americans, might … they expected like some reinforcements you know, like planes to come to Darwin in the near future and they just thought that it could have been American planes, like coming … and all of a sudden we heard these explosions and then sirens goin' and we thought oh well, it must be a raid. So what did you do? Well, we were about eh … a few miles out from the aerodrome. … about a mile I suppose, a mile and eh that was the main object I think, and Darwin itself. They bombed the aerodrome and also Darwin itself and eh … shooting in the harbour. They didn' t come near you? No there was, we didn't get bombed where we were, no. All we saw was a plane crash, like coming down not far from where we were. Like they had dog fights and that you know, like the Japanese because there wasn't too many planes got off the ground you see they, surprise raid or they … they, I think there was … the only planes that were up and the air was … there was about 3 planes had raided Timor and they were coming back and they got back just as the raid started and they just joined in the dog fight when they came back … So you had a ringside seat without much danger to you at the time? Yeah, well there was no bombs dropped in our area, like just where we were. They weren't far away, like you can hear them, I mean and we sort of like, can see what was going on, but there was no bombed dropped in our particular area. Em, afterwards, did you have to go in and help clean up? Eh no, they had chaps there, we had to be on the alert you see, because as I said like they expected, like after this raid they expected there might be a landing. Right. So we were all called out to our gun positions on the coast line. How long did you stay there? Oh we, for a while and then we gradually got relief and we found out that … like there was no imminent invasion and just subsequent raids after that. Each day they still came back and bombed Darwin, you see, aerodrome and area, mm. Did they get closer to you in subsequent raids? Oh no, there was no point in it. But they did, like we were back at the camp, like back from Cameron's Beach back to where we were was about oh 400 yards or so and eh the fellows that, see we had, we had to have some stationed on the beach and their guns, but they did get strafed on that particular day. Right, yes. See some of the fighters strafed along the beach. But we used to take it in turns you see, you had one, some of these chaps would come back to the camp and then we would go, be our turn to … we would have to stop the night out with the guns. Right. How did you feel when you knew that raids were happening? Was there some anticipation of excitement or was it some other sort of feeling? Yeah, well you felt for the people that were the victims of the raid, like you know, when they … surprise raid like that they caught everybody napping and people were probably killed because they didn' t know that it was coming. And I think there was a warning from Bathurst Island about … a priest gave a warning, he said planes are flying over at Bathurst Island. And it takes about, I think about 20 minutes for a plane to come from Bathurst Island, say to Darwin and he rang and gave the warning to the hierarchy in Darwin and they ignored it. They said, "We have got planes at Timor", that was those Kittihawks or bombers were on a raid at Timor and they reckoned it was our planes coming back. So he warned them that all these planes are coming over and they decided not to do much about it until the bombs started dropping. Well they would have had … if they had listened to them and thought, "Well, it could be the Japanese", they might have had time to deploy a few of their ships in the harbour, you know, 20 minutes, like they had 20 minutes. So, they ignored the warning and that is what happened there. So the last raid was in December '43. Were you still there when that happened? Yeah Right. Yeah, we were there for all raids on Darwin, yeah, till they … And you stayed at the same place? No, we weren't at the same place, we shifted from there to different places. We went out to the … 31 mile from Darwin, that is where eh … Have you been up to Darwin yourself? Um. Well as you go out towards Adelaide River you have got Strauss Field and Livingstone Field on your right, fighter fields and over the other side was Hughes Field where the bombers were on the opposite side of the road. But we were camping between Hughes Field … eh Livingstone Field and Strauss Field, in between there we had our camp, yeah. So did you stay with the same group, the whole group moved? Yeah, our whole unit was moved. Well they did have night raids there, like they bombed both Livingstone and Strauss Field while we were there, and we were only in between them and eh so eh, we were there for eh some time. And later on we shifted down towards Adelaide River, where they call the, call the 60 : 51 mile I think it was, we had our tents down there for a while, we had a camp, yeah. So while you were on the machine gun, what was your role? What were you doing? Oh we were there for like the Vickers, were em heavy machine gun and we had … our particular place there was 4, we were and one of our other companies were further up towards the Howard River, and eh C Company was back towards Darwin - we were A Company and you had B Company and C Company and they were all deployed, that's how they had them deployed round from Howard River right round to eh almost to Nightcliff, where Nightcliff is today. Right, ok. You moved to Queensland then. Was that jungle training? Move into Qu … . oh Queensland, oh yes, yes, we came down, see when we came down from Darwin, that was in 1944. Uha Well, we were camped out at Watsonia in Melbourne for a while and then they broke our unit up - 19^th Machine Gun Battalion. Because most of them were AIF, so they, what they done they broke up the unit and they deployed them into all other units and eh I was lucky enough to get into the … with the 2^nd Second Machine Gun Battalion and they had been to the Middle East and eh, as a reinforcement and eh, then I … I was sent up to Queensland and through Canungra, that was the jungle training school. So tell us about the new unit, the one you were assigned to. I was transferred into a unit, the 2^nd Second Machine Gun Battalion, 9^th Division and they were camped at Ravenshoe in Queensland. So, I went through Canungra Jungle Training School, and I think it was about 28 days and then went into Brisbane for a while and then up to Cairns and out the Tablelands to Ravenshoe and joined in with the 2^nd Second Machine Gun Battalion. Ok, tell me about how a crew on a Vickers works? Well, you had your gun and your tripod. Well you set the gun on the tripod and then you had your number, number 1, number 2, your No 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s - they looked after the ammunition that you had. What did 1, 2 and 3 do? One was the one that fired the gun, number 2 was the one that fed the ammunition, looked after the ammunition and number 3 was the one that brought it up. They were behind and they kept bringing the ammunition up for the guns. Uha. And did you all do each of these positions or did you have your own position only? No, that was our own position that we sometimes changed over and I had to go to number 1 position and then eh … and the, yeah number 1 to point number 2, you done that sometimes in case you had to do it anyway. If you lost your number one, well you had your number 2 could do the job. What sort of special training did you do in Canungra? Oh, we, yeah, went to Canungra and the … out by train … I believe the line is taken up to Canungra now, but you could go out to Canungra by train and then we just disembark off the train … from the train and eh we were taken up to camp, so that must have been a couple of mile from Canungra and eh … so eh … and we were there for 28 days. Yeah. And what was the sort of special training you did there? Oh well, you went to … the main, the main training was going on route marches most of the time. Getting used to the climate mostly? Yes, that's right, and also oh there was, it was pretty hard training. You had to walk up what they call the … oh, one big mountain you had to walk up there and if you had to climb up this sort of mountain and then they came back down, what they called the Black Sheep was coming, a gradual climb back to camp. And you were out … oh eh, 2 or 3 days on that. Uha. And other times you went on other duties. And you always, like jungle training, you had to walk through a sort of a jungle with eh … light machine guns and targets would pop up and things like that. But it was pretty hard training. What did you have to carry when you were off on route marches? Oh, you had to carry your pack and you eh … one blanket or whatever it was and your eating facilities and your eh … your eh water bottle, so it was fair … and then, like you carry your rifle and things as well, you know. Did it prepare you for … ? Oh yes, it did. It was hard training, but when you finished the camp, it was about 28 days, well you really felt, you know you were in top, well you were down for a while, but a couple of days later you really felt like, your fitness, really extra good. Were you a very fit young man anyway? Me, oh well, you know, as fit as you could be I suppose. Like eh … Before you joined the army were you into sports? Oh yes, I used to play football and I was a bike rider for quite a few years and em … I liked foot running, but mainly football before I went in the army. So were most of the young men like that? - fit already when they went in? Oh I think so, yeah, but you had that hard training as well to really … find out … Bring you up to your peak, um. Ok, then you had to go to Borneo. Did you have some leave in Australia before you went to Borneo? Eh, no. Once we were up to the Tablelands we didn't have any lea … We had leave before I went up. See when we come back from Darwin I was in Melbourne, Watsonia as I said, and we were allowed to go into Melbourne in the city on leave. But once you got up to the Tablelands, there was no leave there. Ok. What about that leave in Melbourne now? The Americans would have been around by then? Yeah, they were in Melbourne then. How did you feel about the Americans? Oh, we never had much to do with them. We were out at Watsonia and they had their own campsite in different … other places, but you would see them in the city when you went into town but eh … Did you go to the cinema and to dances and things like that in Melbourne? Yeah, I used to like the cinema. And I also went out to Prahran to the dancing out there. Uha. We saw a football match before we went up and eh … So you didn't have any of that kind of jealousy of the Americans who all got all the girls and that ..? Oh no, no, never seen much of them at all. Ok. They were at the dancin' but you didn't worry about, no-one worried about … there was no animosity I don't think, as far as I was concerned. Goodo. So, then to jungle training and then off to Tarakan? Yes. Yeah, actually we went to … I was over at Ravenshoe, it was nice up there, I liked up … they had a good camp up there and as I said we got into a top unit and the people looked after you and they were really good. Even though you were reinforcements, you know, those chaps had been to the Middle East and they sort of, you know, they really … I enjoyed their company and they were really good. They helped us a lot. Were there any other indigenous soldiers in the group that you were in? Yeah, there was one from Queensland, his name was Col Pacey, he was there in the same unit as I was, yeah. And it didn' t make any difference to the mateship that went on? No, no, no, nothing whatsoever. No. Good, ok, tell me about Borneo. You went to Tarakan, but by now it is quite late in the war, it's April 1945, so this is the last dying stages of the war isn't it? The 1^st of May was the landing at Tarakan. When we went up we went were in the top of New Guinea. Left Townsville on the Seacat, the name of the American boat, and we went right up to Morotai, it is just below the Philippines and we were there for a little while and then, of course, the first, the landing at Tarakan, we left there, I think it was 1^st May when we landed at Tarakan, 1945, and I was on the Menora, that was an Australian passenger ship and we were on that. There was other units that eh … some of the infantry units were in LSTs - I think there was the Menora and the Westralia were the 2 that were in the convoy and we were on the Menora and we eh … we had to get our machine guns off, we had to go out on the wharf and get our machine guns off and we had to then assemble them when they got in. It was pretty hazardous getting out there because like you … being strafed and everything you know, like it was pretty hot. You were being strafed while you were trying to land? Yeah. We went out to get our machine guns, you see they took our machine guns and they put them on the wharf, then we had to go and pick them up, off the wharf to come and bring them in to the beach. Is this from the air? Strafed from the air? Yes. And it was mainly from the inland, like they, you got most of the flak from the inland like, they were, as you were landing you see. So it was a pretty hazardous landing. I suppose the first night was the worst, we got shelled the first night on Tarakan, but from there on we, as it went on we mainly done shooting off the infantry, shoot over their heads and all that. Where did you stay the first night? Where did you bed down? Oh, we were down a road and we stayed at a road, where there was a sort of a Y sort of a thing, we were right in the middle of that. We were shelled during the night, we were a bit lucky and eh the first night, that was the worst night. That was the worst night we had. Had you dug in? Well we had … we were lucky, we were … like the people that were on Tarakan the … they were Indonesians, they must have had a garden near where we … that first night we were camping they had, you know, it was just gardens and they had drains and like beds, you know, where they … Um And we got into these drains, you know, like we stayed the night in those. It was pretty good. Did you lose many men that night? Not our unit, no, no … oh others did like and our other part of our company and that sort of thing, other battalion, parts of the battalion. See we, we were sort of eh, we were … one company machine gunner, D Company, and eh we were attached to, well we were attached to the 2^nd Twenty Third Battalion, it was and there was a 2^nd Twenty Fourth and 2^nd Forty Eight Battalion. There was … we had D Company Platoons were … each Platoon was allotted to one of those units, like the 2^nd Twenty Fourth, 2^nd Forty Eight and eh 2^nd Twenty Third. We got the 2^nd Twenty Third, they were infantry and we were attached to them for the whole of the Tarakan campaign. What happened the next day? You moved on? Yeah, we moved on and we got to a hill called Marjie and the names … they made the names of the hills on Tarakan, there was Marjie and Helen and Joyce, all girls names mostly, have the different, they were sort of razor back ridges. They called all those features by girls' names, yeah. And we were at Marjie for a while and the infantry were there as well and we done some sheets off Marjie and that … But eh … And you were firing above the heads of the infantry? Yeah, the infantry went out and you could fire over their heads type … I think the range of Vickers are about 1200 yards or something like that. Uha. Or further sometimes I suppose, shoot over. But eh … oh it was, the 2^nd Twenty Fourth was a really good unit. They had been over to the Middle East of course. What sort of resistance did you find? What sort of ..? Resistance from the Japanese? Oh yeah, a lot of resistance from the start. The first several days and eh they … cos they pushed them further back and I think when the war ended you still had to be careful. Like after the eh bombing in Japan, I think that was the end of the war, that caused the end of the war didn' t it? They still … you couldn't get … you still had to watch out because they still had … they still fought on after the … But that 3 months May, June, July you were ther,e and you were just gradually pushing forward through Borneo? Yeah. Yeah, the infantry mainly, they were the ones that, the 2^nd Forty Eight, that is VC winner, you know Ted Kenna, yes. From Adelaide wasn' t he? See he was in the 2^nd Forty One, the VC in New Guinea and he got killed at Tarakan. Oh right. Um, um. Right. How did you know what was happening from one day to the next? When were you told what you were going to be doing the next day? Oh well you were there and they would just say look, well you just dig in … like you had your places where you dig in like and you would stay there and they would say, we are going to move on to the next feature or something like that. We would just pack up and go to the next feature, as you push forward. How long did it take to get to the next? Oh not very long because they were razor back ridges and you would have to go down a valley like and then come up the other side, you know, there was a lot of that. Tarakan seemed to be full of those sort of eh … sorry, ridges and things like that. So, but you never then had time to dig in and make a camp, you just, everything was temporary? Oh, no, no, no, just … Because you were pushing forward so fast? Yeah. What happened to casualties? Did you have medical facilities right with you or ? Oh yes, had your stretcher bearers and anyone got wounded and they were attended to by stretcher bearers, things like that. What about food? Oh you had your food with you or you just had to have … . as you pushed in you see you had your cook houses behind and if you were lucky enough sometimes they would bring you up a meal from behind you see. As you went forward they sort of eh … cook you a meal sometimes, you' d be lucky. Did you have much to do with non combatants, like Red Cross people or Salvation Army people? Oh yes, and that was great because the Salvation Army especially, I remember they came up right into your firing line a few time and brought hot coffee up. And they always seemed to be if you were out on a route march, even when you weren't in action, they were sort of there with chewing gum or something for you, yeah quite often, they were really good. How did you prepare yourself to go into action? Oh well you were psyched up a bit by your commanders, like you were told what was going on and what you were going to do, what they would try to do and things like that, so you were well prepared for … what went ahead. Were you ever injured? No, no, but we eh … went close a few times and eh, I was eh … I was near a grenade when it went off once and it was lucky that it was soft ground and it didn' t spread out, went straight up like, you know when the grenade went off. Different little things like that, we were a bit lucky. Is there a let down after action? Yeah, sort of … after, we just sort of, like when things quietened down, you sort of felt a bit relieved, you know, you oh … "I am still here"? Yeah. But as I said we em were on the machine guns, but the infantry people, they were the ones that used to cop most of it. Um. They were in the forefront. Right. While you were away from home, you were being paid all the time, did any of that actually get into your pocket or was this always a … just a paper transaction? Did you have money to spend? Oh no, it was usually put in your account for you. Right.OK Yeah, yeah, you didn't have to worry about it. And I used to get .. send it home, home to the people, yeah. Did you get a lot of mail? Yes, I wrote to … had different pen friends, yeah.. It was good that way because it was nice like, you knew what was going on at home and I wrote to several people. Like it would give you something to do, you write home and then it was nice to expect letters. Then when we were up at Darwin a lot of people used to send … like you would get a cake or things like that and we used to share it in our tent. And one of chaps that was a corporal like - he still lives in Dimboola, Eric Avery - well I was with him lots of times up at Darwin and we knew one another very well, like it was pretty good. Two other chaps. Did anybody get bad news from home? Anyone you knew of? Bad news from home? Um. Eh, yeah I think Eric might have lost his father when we were up at Darwin, yeah I am not too sure about that. What happened in those kinds of cases, did you just look after each other or was there some kind of system to help people? Oh, yeah, well they sort of … oh well you knew about it, and then of course you, you sort of helped them a lot and sort of realised that, you know, for a while they would be downhearted, losing especially a parent sort of thing, it is a big loss isn't it, yes. Ok, where were you when the war ended? Yeah, we were at Tarakan when the war ended and eh. How did you get the news? Oh, well you … quite often, they had a Tarakan, what they called a Tarakan Times, a paper and that used to come out all the time. Like they printed at Tarakan so they got the news, got a lot of the news that was going on. When did you get to Tarakan? What date? Um. It was 1^st May 1945, that was the landing. When did you leave Tarakan? Oh December, yeah I didn't quite make it home for Christmas. We left Tarakan a few days before Christmas and we came home on the Stamford Victory, that was a victory ship, American, and we came … got into Brisbane on em … 2 days before Christmas and eh Chirmside I think it was, we were in camp at Chirmside. Anyway we thought, gee we might make it home for Christmas, but we couldn't. They had too many people to come home, like you know, you would have to be flown home so pretty hard. So we had to spend Christmas in Brisbane. And we got into Melbourne just before New Year's Day in 1946. And when were you finally demobbed? I think it was June 1946, ' cos I didn't have enough points. They went on a points system for discharged people and the … you got to wait your turn, so I didn't get out till June 1946, but I eh … Did you consider staying in? No, no. What did you want to do when you'd … ? Oh, I wanted to go back to work. Where? Well I was, I had the railways in mind and eh, so I, I wanted to get to be an engine driver. Anyway, we got into, I think it was halfway into 19 … yeah, I couldn't get out straight away anyway. Had a … I was up at Bandiana for a while … that is where they … just near Wodonga and they were bringing all their army equipment there to store. I was there for a while until I got me discharge. I … we were stackin' rifles and stuff like that, you know .303 rifles. Right. They put them in boxes and they put em in heaps in the stores up there. So I was there till I got me discharge and eh and then I came home and put in for the railways and I couldn't get in straight away to the locomotive part of it, so I was on the works for a while until I was … towards the end of 1946 I got word that I could go to Ararat and eh learn to be a fireman, so I had to go down there for a while and I eventually got my driver's certificate in 1951. And you stayed in the railways? Oh yes, till I retired in 1980. Right, what about getting married. When did that happen? Eh I got married in 1958. Right, so quite a long while after the war then? Yeah, October 1958, yeah … oh well the war sort of … you know.. Interrupted things. Yeah, oh it was em Did you have any problem adjusting after the war, did you have difficulties getting back into ordinary sort of civilian life, did you sleep properly and things like that? No, not for a while. I think that … like there was a bit of … you sort of think about things for a while, it took a while to sort of realise, although it was with relief that the war was over, like, it sort of took you a while to come back into, to get back into civilian life. It sort of took a little while to adjust. What were the problems of adjusting? Oh, I think you had 5 years or so, mainly with your mates, like you know, during the war and you sort of eh it is sort of, you know, a little bit different when you got to go back in civilian life, it is a different thing altogether. Did you keep in touch with the men who had been with you? Oh yes, eh and in fact with the 19^th machine gunners it is like quite a few of them came from around … around here, the district Horsham and eh Natimuk, the original people, and eh so we have a reunion every year. Same … round about the same time as the first raid on Darwin and we go into Horsham and the RSL down there and have a dinner. You know, we have got one coming up in February. Right, so you joined the RSL? Oh yeah, I have been in the RSL ever since I came back yeah, still in the RSL. And what sort of activities do you do with the RSL? Oh we have a meeting every month and eh we … we have got good, good places, like where we meet, like a hall. Really good up here. Were you a drinking man when you went into the army? No, I never drank in me life. No. You didn' t even drink at the RSL? No. And that isn't a problem? Oh no, no. I have been a teetotaller all me life and no problems you … oh sometimes they might have a bit of a go at you, things like that. What did you do with your beer ration in the army? Oh my mates used to get it. Ok. We were allotted, you know, a couple of bottles a week, or whatever it was and eh, one of the boys in the tent … they'd take it in turns, they used to get it … . Right, do you march on ANZAC Day? Yeah. Have you done so all the time, every time? Eh, I've only missed about one I think, but not always in Melbourne. I marched up here, we would march up to the high school, it is a … the high school is a memorial high school for the soldiers killed in the First World War. That' s Dimbooola High School? Yeah, it was built in 1924, yeah. Right. So they call it a memorial high school, Memorial Secondary College now, yeah. Right, have you noticed changes in ANZAC Day in the last few years? Well, you know, the only change you notice is that there is less people marching, that is all … you know. What about young people marching on behalf of their fathers and … ? Yes, I always notice that there is quite a few, you see different ones, because they have their medals on the right hand side. They march or perhaps their daughters or whatever they will march out and it is nice to see, yeah. Do you talk about your war experience much? No, oh, not very much but per … like the family might ask something, I talk about it. What was the worst memory you have got of the war? Oh the fact that we lost one or two boys up at Tarakan. You were close mates? Uha. And that is still hard to remember? Mm. What about good memories, have you got good memories too? Oh, the fact that you eh you have got your … the camaraderie of your people, that's it … And that continues now? Yes. So did going to the war make any difference to the way people treated you? When you came back was there any difference? No, there was no difference, before or after the war, it was just the same. You got back into the people you knew and, the people you knew and so that … there were changes of course, we all know like after about 5 years, well that there are changes, but no, it made no difference as far as meeting up with other people was concerned, no. You were important to this community anyway, you were already a footballer, did you go back into football? Oh yes, I played with Dimboola after the war and eh also eh like eh bowls, I have been in the bowling club, I was the president of the bowling club for 4 years down here and eh. Did you take an office in the RSL at all? No, no not yet. I have had opportunities, but I couldn't do it because I am in Legacy, I am a Legatee, like with my Legacy, we look after the Legacy widows. Right. I have been in that since 1984 and eh … and we've got about, there must be about 40 odd widows in Dimboola. Three of us look after those widows, yes. What does looking after them entail? Eh, well we see that they are ok and then we fought for their gold card, like see some of them haven't got a gold card, but if their husbands died with a … something to do with the war, you know, they have a great chance of getting a gold card which makes a big difference to them. That' s a travel card? A gold card? A gold card, yeah. Some of them, and we got … in Legacy have got a Pensions Committee that fight for those widows, they go down to Melbourne for the tribunal and if eh … say that like the husband might have passed away and he might have had something to do with the war or he smoked or he … smoking was a great, you know, that's a great factor, so we have got, as I said, we have got quite a few widows and we just, when they want anything, they are allowed to get a load of wood or a gas cylinder or things like that and they tell us if anything is wrong and we take it back to the meeting, so. And how do you think the war has changed your life in any way? Eh .. yeah I suppose … the fact is that like you are almost a teenager when you go into camp and then of course after the war you are a 25 or 26 or something like that, well it is a little different isn't it? You grow up quicker? Yeah and eh, I think you, when you get back … of course it changes, like you are away for 5 years and a few changes when you come back ,and of course, but I think through the Depression sort of was a bit awkward for a lot of people, and that is why we found it awkward in the Depression, ' cos there was a lot of people the same wasn't there? Um. Yeah. But eh … oh I think it is eh … it is much better now than it has been before, but eh … they were traumatic years weren't they through the war.
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