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Beryl Hogarth Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand 10 January 2001 - Tape 1
Beryl Hogarth interviewed at East Burwood, 10th January, 2001 So can we start at the beginning and you tell me your very early life. Just a little bit. Age first? Age first, yes. Date of birth. Date of birth is 25th May 1928. Right. 72 I think. That's right isn't it? That's right, yes. Well, I was born I was born in Caulfield in Victoria of course and lived in Caulfield up to the age of I suppose 12 and I remember a lot about that era because I suppose many things have formed certain things within me. To start with, I have 2 older sisters who are close in age - a gap of 4 years, myself, a gap of 4 and a bit years, and my younger sister, so I always felt sometimes that I was kind of pushed down or stuck in the middle. I have always remembered that, I have always remembered it. So where did you go when you were … . So perhaps I came a bit independent now, I think back on that time and not wanting to be too close any more because I felt as though I was being manipulated and I always think it is terrible for the middle child now. Where were you educated? I was in … . we went all of us went to Caulfield North and my older sisters then went to St Michaels. Then we moved to Camberwell. At that time I think it was nearing the end of the war and I cant remember whether it ended before we moved or after. Then I went to Camberwell Central School- that is a state school - and then I was booked to go to St Michaels and I performed and I was not academically minded at all. Things were a struggle for me. Maths are a struggle for me - it is an impossibility in fact. I have to sit over it and I … you know, I work things out. That is difficult for a nurse Well, there are things that I will learn. I had to learn and I will learn because I had no knowledge of decimal and the metric system as it is now and it came in while I was at The Royal Melbourne. So that was a difficulty for me, but I did it. I, you know, on the mirror, rote. But no, I did do more of that later, because I went eventually .. because I wanted to go to East Camberwell Girls' School anyway, and my father said "no" too many of the people I had been to school with were going there. So I went off to Hassett's Business College and did a stenographic course and bookkeeping and things. Aha. So that helped me a bit in the maths department. So how did you come to be a nurse? Well, I went to the barracks and I worked as a secretary and I worked as a secretary a long time and then I suppose I had a little bit of emotional turmoil as young people do and I headed off to Queensland with my … my family was quite happy and I stayed with people that we knew up there for a while and then I tuored Queensland and then I worked in the bush and I worked in Daydream Island and I just worked around and moved around and did jillarooing and all kinds of things and enjoyed it. And I heard about them just starting to take people into the Nursing Corps. it was when they just started and when I was in Cairns one day I went round and just asked. Asked at the army? Yes, what was it all about, you know, and then they said oh you know you have to go down to Brisbane tra la la la la. So I did. I thought, this is interesting. See me father was a Gallipolli man and I think that also has formed some things in me about many things and I did … and I thought, yes this is interesting, that would be a good job. I didn't want to go back to getting on the tram at nine … you know, for 9 o'clock to 5 o'clock work and seeing people knit?? down (??4.5) where they would knit something else, and I thought I cant stand it any more. So I thought, no, no, no, no, I have to do something else, so I came into the army and they trained us as a … enrolled nurse level. And that's … Right, where? I went to Puckapunyal and then we went to … school was at … training school was at Portsea then, so we trained down there and went back to Puckapunyal and it was from there that I went across to Japan. So when did you do your training? Well after Japan I was in there and I thought, I had already reached sergeant's level and was being promoted to Warrant Officer and I thought, no, and there was a sister that I was working with at … the last unit I was at was a CMF unit. I was an instructor there and the sergeant - the NCO in charge and I spoke to her at great length. I remember her - Beth Riley. Wonderful person and she … I spoke to her and said, you know, what can I do? What do you think I should do? My sister - one sister had already done nursing and she did her training and she was out just a little while in the bush and then she got married and she never nursed again. But, I thought, oh, I really have to do something because I will just be like this forever. And again that same fear came to me - you see I suppose it is a true Gemini - I couldn't … I thought I couldn't go on with this kind of a routine and I wasn't going anywhere. I felt I was facing brick wall again. She said to me to go up and talk about it and she said, I think you should do it. So I thought … oh … and then I thought the education - zilch. Then I thought … so off I went and I saw Dean Headbury. The school I chose was the Melbourne School of Nursing and I chose it because you didn't have to do all your study and all your lectures in your off time. They had block study which was excellent and I think it is better than the way they are even doing it now. And so I thought no, that would be better for me, you know to go to a block and concentrate and then come back and do the practical and so I thought, yes, that will better, so I went there. When was that? '56 I think. 56? Right. And it would be early April or May, April I think. And so I went to see her and she didn't really ask me a lot of things because she had rung the army already about my nursing in the army and so I don't know what that was about, but she just said to me, you know, I have to tell you she said, you are older than the other girls that will start with you - 'cos I was … I would have been 26 then I think and she said you, you know you have got to put up with their nonsense and this that and the other because you have got to live in and all this kind of thing. And I said, "well I don't think it will worry me", because I had been in the army, you know, and I had had to live with many people before and I said, "probably more so than they." So she … anyway she accepted me So let's go back then to that early army nursing, tell me about that. Where were you … you were stationed in Coby? Curay. Curay? Curay, I did some time in Tokyo, but very short and then we were in Curay. It was a … the major general hospital. It was the Brit Com General Hospital and we had our own matron there, but there was the British Matron there who was in charge, and the same applied to the doctors. And there was the surgical, medical, the whole full bit. And your patients were coming from Korea? From Korea. They came in. One friend of mine worked on the train for a short while and what happens then … they go to Irrakoonie, which is the air base, flown out from Korea, brought in up on the train and then come to us and then mostly we would be all called out of our beds or anything when there was an influx like that and we would just all have to go up, get dressed, get up there, because you have to wash them, perhaps feed them, you know, whatever, whatever, and some of them even have to be worked on straight away, you know. Some of them were very ill, very sick. And it was just a question that they no longer could do for them in Korea because that wasn't … that was a kind of a casualty clearing station anyway. Right. So they had to come out. So you got the really serious cases then. They all came, they all came to us, medical, surgical, yeh, they all came. Prisoners of war. And what kind of nursing were you doing there? Just general? Right hands on. General nursing, you weren't a specialist at … ? No, no, no. I worked in the wards, I didn't work in theatre at all. None of us did actually up there. No, I worked in the ward surgical or medical, whatever. I really liked I suppose then, I thought … it was forming in me to prefer medicine to surgery, but we still did the surgery. And I have to say, oh, I was sent to the Officers' ward and I can remember this clearly. I was sent there and it is hard to believe how naïve a person can be at the age I was then - 21 - and I can always remember Sister Crouch sending me to the female ward and she said there is a lady up there and she said she was aborting, which wasn't terribly clear to me and she said, she said she em … but I want you to look after her for me she said and I will get somebody else to come up to the … and I will be over, you know (??10.3) ward. But she went to sea because she didn't know anything about midwifery I now know. The British Sister, a Scottish Sister, who was a midwife, and she came over to see me but I was doing blood pressure and doing this and doing that and all the things I had learned and when I think of it now now that I am a midwife it is incredible. And I heard this whistling noise outside and I am looking out and there comes this sister, a big woman. She came over to me and she said, "what are you doing?" And I said, "Oh I have got these Sister and I said … . oh!, she screws them all up and throws them at you. "We don't need any of that" she said, "no, no, no, we don't need that." And she said, "Give me a glove" and give me this and get me that and I got them for her and off she went and she said, "oh I will be back at 2 o'clock." And do you know, she was spot on. But she said, "there I am, I am over there in Ward 3" and she said, "there, you can see the windows", she said, "I will look over now and then, she said and if all is well, just wave" she said, "we will keep a communication." And then, of course, nearing 2 o'clock (whistle) along the path again and here she comes. And she came up and she said, "now", she said "you don't know much about this do you?" and I said "No Sister" very quietly. She said, "I want you to stand at the end of the bed" and she said, "and I want you to watch", you know and she said, "what is happening" and she said, "do all this you see." Well I did what she said and she was busy doing what she was doing, so I just stood there like that. I thought … With your eyes closed? Yes, I thought this is dreadful, I can't watch this. So that's how I was … that is the kind of … after all the, you know, mixing around and moving around, but you see I had no idea about birth. Anyway, it all happened, I did go and look at the poor little, tiny baby. She had done it herself this woman apparently and … eh. Was this a member of the forces? No, she was a wife of. Oh, right.   I think she was American and they brought her in to us. Ok. But Sister was wonderful. She sat and talked to me for a long while and she was very nice about it all and I thought, what a dreadful thing for Sister Crouch to do, to send someone like me over there. But it was … that is … you know I did a lot of things there that I had would … had never experienced. Where were you living when you were working there? Well we lived down the road in a Transit Hotel it was, but it was made over to quarters for us. All the other ranks were there. And NCO's. And did you have any kind of special provisions for the nurses? Were you kept apart from the rest of the people? How do you mean? Where you were living? The Japanese you mean? No, the … ... the officers? Yes. Oh yes, because when I first got there, there was kind of a fairly relaxed attitude and some British/Scottish Officers came down dressed and wanted some of us to go up and do Scottish dancing and apparently it had been the thing that they often did this and so off we went and the Australian Matron was furious. So she … I don't think she minded when it was the older girls that were still up there when she arrived, but when it came to we, the new lot, and the OWANC, whole different stories. It was all stopped very smartly. No we were not allowed to go up there at all. Was there a curfew? Oh yes, but you see you went out and you rushed home and you hopped into bed, clothes and all, and you screwed up in a little ball and the Sister came down in the DD vehicle and she had the torch and she came round and checked us and she could see your face screwed up there, sound asleep and when she went, you would hear the vehicle go, you would all hop and hop in the car round the corner and go back to the party. So it was a waste of time. Right. It is something I cancelled when I became an officer. Checking. I thought it was a nonsense. Because I knew it happened. Ok, so, were you socialising with local people or with … other military? Mostly with military people. You know, we didn't … the only socialisation I did, I went to the home. I was … had a friend that was a British driver and an NCO in charge of the transport at the hospital and I … he had friends because he had Japanese drivers and he took us to a home one day … and we … a couple of times … and we had a meal there - a typical Japanese meal, which was beautiful really. And she never ate at all while we were eating - only the man, which was … I think they have stopped that now. Did you get any sense of what the Japanese thought of the Australian … the Australian … ? I think they weren't happy, I think they weren't happy. Our house skills were lovely and they were efficient and they were really lovely and we kind of were mostly friendly with them. Most Australians were pretty relaxed with their … you know … the indigenous people that were working for them. Probably we spoilt them to a certain extent, but they were obliging. And I think that, yes, I did think so because sometimes you would meet some of the young men particularly on the street who would walk spread out so that you would have to walk right out to the gutter. Uha. They didn't give way. You know, I think this was just a thing em. What was the General. I have forgotten his name. Once he went, I think, they began to show their independence and they didn't want to be occupied as such. Well see occupation had really almost stopped because we were there really now just for the Korean War, so these … the young people were starting to rebel against the occupation. Right. Was there any sense of a kind of regular day, or was this crisis driven? Did you have a normal routine? No, we did have our day off. But did you have it when you were working? Was there a system and a routine? Yes, we were rostered. You either had evening duties. You knew what you were on. You know, an evening duty or you might be on night duty for a week. How many patients did you have under you? Oh, well not under me necessarily. There would be 2 or 3 of us on in the morning and at least a couple at night and the Sisters as well. How many in the ward? Oh dear me, the wards were very long. Eh, I would say there would be up to 30 at least, yes. They were great big long wards and they were just full. They were different … they were sectioned, but … and see in the surgical ward there were even more nurses and you would have a section, kind of … but eh … like a ward within a ward, and they would be your patient responsibilities and there would be about 10 or so in those wards, I think, I would say, in the surgical ward. In the medical ward it was different. It was straight down and there were rows and it was a little piece on the end which wasn't in used until the POW's came, and then you just worked through the ward. And I … in the medical ward, it was because, you know, I had a lot of ulcer patients there or patients with those kind of abdominal problems and I … I used to do the rationing and make up the extra meals that they used to have each day, which was good. I did have trouble with Japanese person. What do you mean by that? There was a … there would be the matrons, Mumasab on her floor, I don't know what she did. She was probably a "goffer" or whatever, and tidied and dusted around in the office and keep the office clean and she kept coming down to the ward and she would take … she would want sandwiches for the Matron's office you see. And after a while, 'cos I was in charge of the rations, I thought, no, I am not going to do this every day, send food up there and I thought, they haven't any right to this. And said to her "No" this day, I said "you go upstairs one day, down here next day, surgical one day, ward 3, ward 2, ward 1, then you come back here." And she said, "No, no, no understand." And I said, "Yes you do, I said you take the tray and you go tray upstairs, ask for sandwich upstairs." Anyway, she went back to the Matron. I gave her the tray and she went back to the Matron, I know this Matron she is in Canberra still and she said … she didn't like me, I can tell you this Matron. She said, "Oh", what are you … the girl … "What are you doing?" she said, "what is the matter, why are you crying?" She had been up there crying, crying, you know and I … she said I had shoved her and I had done this and whatever, oh, she was bad news that one. And anyway, I got called to Matron of course. The long and the short of it was that Matron … I denied it and I said, "I didn't" and I said "I told her what to do" and I said I told her she could go to each ward, she wasn't to come only to my ward. I said, "I have got to account for rations for patients who are on special meals," and she said … oh you know … something about it and my attitude and to push her, and I said, "No, no, no I didn't do that" and I said "you take her word or you take mine Matron" and she looked at me and she said "Get out, get, I don't want to see you again" and she never told me anything any more. And so … but she … I struck her again when I had … I got a bit of glandular fever up there and I went to the office and worked in the office for a while, because they knew I had been in an office and she used to hang around the desks and I didn't trust her. And I thought I was … it was always in my mind that I didn't like her and there was something about her, and I would come in and she would never finish the dusting, and I would start to get out all my papers and the stuff I had to type when she would come over and start to want to do something, and I thought, no you don't, because she read things. She told the girls when they were going home or when someone was going home over in the quarters and I thought, no she reads and she knows, so. Ok. So you were discharged in 1955 and you came back and did your course? Yes. And then you did some … em reserve work as well, what was that? What does it actually say? It says appointed to reserve of officers 12th May… Oh no, that was when I was over doing my … after my midwifery and I was working in Western Australia, yes, yes. So where … you came back from Japan, you were discharged? Yes. And where did you go to work? Royal Melbourne - Melbourne School of Nursing actually, so you work at serious hospitals. Ok, that was a 3 year course? 3 year and you had to do post graduate year. Right, and then after that where did you go? Western Australia, to King Edward Memorial Hospital. We did our midwifery, we did a little extra post graduate time there. Then I went up the north, just travelling and working. Oh, ok. So how did you come to be doing this reserve … ? I came back to … after we had been right up the north with another couple of girls. We were travelling in a Land Rover. I came back to Perth and we had to find another job, and one of the others and I went to Wooralloo to work, and that was a kind of rehabilitation area centre. So, that was fine, we enjoyed that, and then the time was coming, we had to move and … oh, we felt, and she was going to Princess Margaret's, I think and I decided I would go to Hollywood, which was the repatriation hospital and that is when I found difficulty because I was engaged then anyway and the finance was hopeless. So I then decided that no, I would have to … I was already on the Reserve and I had been approached and I was doing lectures for them one night a week when they had their parade, which is normal CMF routine. And, so then I decided, no I would go full time duty because they needed someone out at 5 Camp Hospital and I thought, well that will suit me better. Right, so you just did a few months of full time? Yes. And then where did you go? Came home and … Where was home? Melbourne - Camberwell, em. And had to think about where I was going to work again because my private life had all broken up, so I had to kind of, you know, poor old Dad. I had always (??22.3) my father. And so, then I did private nursing, an agency and then I thought, this is no good, I have got to make some kind of career and I have got to make some kind of life for myself and so I went off into town and did … and saw the Matron in there. And joined up again? And I joined up into the permanent army again, yes. Right. And, what was your first appointment there when you came back? Oh, I was sent up immediately to eh 1 Military Hospital in Queensland. Uha. And I had a ward up there, which was good. No, by now, you had quite a few special skills didn't you? General skills, yes, I was a generalist, but I would never say I was a theatre sister because it is not something I excelled at, I didn't like it. But you did midwifery? Oh yes, yes. And what else? No, no, no, I only did the midwifery and then I kind of predominantly did general nursing because in Hollywood too I did medical nursing. Then up there I had the medical ward - for no reason. I mean Matron didn't know, but she just had someone in surgical at that time and I had my odd stint there of course when you go on night duty, so I did that up there. How big was that camp? Em, oh you are going to ask me how many beds in each ward again and I don't know, I never know. See, it's a number thing again … I don't need exact numbers. They had quite large wards and they were not in sections as wards go. They had … they were cubicled by 4 patients, 4 patients, 4 patients and they had the surgical ward and the medical ward had approximately the same. I would say about 25 - something like that each. And em they had a couple of single rooms near the end where there is … people perhaps needed more attention. And em … so both wards were exactly the same. And you were in charge? Of medical ward. And then there was an officers' ward eventually and then I was moved over there and then I had officers and … but that was really just to open it because I was about to be posted anyway. Did you have others under you then? Sisters, yes. How many staff were under you? About 3. Kind of … it didn't work quite like that because the Matron did the roster and she put people where there was a need. See you didn't always … mostly I had a couple with me in the daytime - nearly all the time - but of course they would go off on night duty or whatever and when you are on night duty you do the whole hospital. So you are really kind of "flat chat" and they had to work pretty hard and, well as we all did when we did the night duty. But evening time you had a sister and she did the whole lot too. That is just the way it worked. Where did you patients come from? Here, military. Now some of them … …yes but where from? Well just from exercises, from being ill, from accidents. Many kind of medical things because some of them we had with asthma, some of them we had with diabetes that suddenly come across all these little funny things and just some general things that they had got glandular fever, or they had got pneumonia or - just a mish-mash of things. But the surgical ones were nearly always road accidents or exercise accidents. The ordinary things that everybody gets like appendix or those kind of abdominal problems. Muscular problems you would get from their training things. We were nearly always full, we were nearly always full. We would get some down from the north too, you see, because they would have to bring them down to us because it was best to keep them within the system. And then you were sent to Malaysia? Oh … where did I go? Malaysia? Yes, I did go from there, that is right, yes I did, yes. And that was lovely. Well that was nearly 2 years. Yes it was. That was quite a long time. Yes it was, yes. And eh, yes it was very good, em, yes I worked in the surgical ward there and I worked in the medical ward and I did a couple of deliveries there, much to the chagrin of the British Matron because we were deemed unqualified because we didn't do district you see, like they do in England. And she was a bit distressed, but the Midwife was in charge anyway, and I knew her you see, and she just needed help. There was no question about what I would do and there was also an abortion - which I well knew about by now. In my ward, which came to me, because they can't go to the midwifery section. They are not allowed to go in with the midwifery patients. Well already this is quite a difference from what you were dealing with? Oh yes. What other differences were there? And I had Children's Ward. A Children's Ward? Yes, and I was in charge of the Children's Ward. Is this local children? No, no, no … well, no, but you have got all sorts, you had British Jam… you know, and therefore you got the odd little Jamaican children - don't tell me how you tell them when they have got burnt or red…I couldn't … I never did learn. And you have got Gurkhas, Gurkha children and New Zealanders, Maori kids, Maori children who were taught Maori at home so that, you know, you would hear them talking to their parents and they knew a bit of English, so it was fortunate. And the children were lovely. The Children's Ward was lovely up there. Where were you in Malaya? Toorendak … Toorendak … it is near Malaka and it is a camp out in its own right. I think they have taken it over now. It doesn't look too good, I have been to see it since. That is a British camp? It was a … yes, that was another British hospital set up. It was a very nice, it was a well set up hospital, excellent. And I still write to girls, British girls that were there with me, they are good friends. And Cameron Highlands I went to. I was lucky, because that was wonderful. That is the change of air station for the patients who have been very sick, they send them up there for recuperation and change of air, so that was quite good. How did you live while you were in there? Were you … ? Very well indeed. We had our own rooms and … it is hard to explain unless you have been to a tropical area. They kind of … right along … and a long verandah and we had our own … everybody has their own room and it is quite large. It is quite large, there is a good sitting area and the bed and everything else and there is bathrooms all the way so that you have got no hold-ups. How did you cope with the climate? Dreadfully at first. But then there was a British lady who suggested to me that I come and play golf with her, because she knew I played golf and I did get some golf clubs up there and she said, "come and play golf", you know, I thought ...oh … and eventually I got into a routine where I did it and then you just get used to it, you know you get used to it. Ok. Night duty was a whole new thing, but that was quite a long stint. But we slept separately in a different place altogether, completely air conditioned and closed off so you didn't hear any outside noise at all. I just turned my meals around and the cooks were used to me doing that because I used to have a massive breakfast, and then I would sometimes go for a swim and do different things in the morning and then I would go to sleep and then they would have to bring me sandwiches to take to work and I would wake up and have a boiled egg or something because I used to make that breakfast. I used to turn my meals around as well. Even do that home here. How did they work the rosters? Were you on night shift for a long time at a stretch? About a fortnight. So it was worth doing that complete shift? Oh yes, oh yes, yes, yes it was. Did you socialise there with local people or still just within … ? Well, not much with local people. I chased up a friend, a Chinese girl and her family at Kuala Lumpur because - and we went out a couple of times when I went down there because she trained with me at Melbourne and she had gone back and I had been in touch with her. No, not really. We didn't go to indigenous homes or things like that. But again you had, you were dragged into an environment with a lot of different people again because you had the Kiwis and you had the Gurkhas and that kind of thing, so it was quite interesting in that way really. So what sort of things happened on the base that you would go to? Oh, they had parties and, you know, I suppose they always celebrated things like Australian Day for us and something else for the Kiwis and whatever … everybody did a thing. You might have dances, we had dances, dinner dances - the sergeants particularly had dinner dances and we used to mix in the ranks a bit like that, because the sergeant in my medical ward was a trained nurse. You see the British males came through through the ranks and some of their sisters did too because they trained within the service.   Like you started. Yes and they trained fully within their service because their set up was like that in England. They still do it, I think, yes. So, did you find it a relaxed lifestyle or a very stressful one? Oh no, it was really, it was quite, it was reasonably relaxed really. You had serious things, but you had enough going on outside afterwards and the time to unwind again, you know, so that was good. They used to have … the thing that was, I suppose, the only thing that was rather moving was that you … if you … especially if you were in the male wards end you would hear drums go down the road and the boys would say "who's that, who's that?" And I would say, well you'll have to wait, because they had deaths from Borneo or deaths round and they would have to take them to the cemetery which was not … out a bit, but you would hear the drums going because the band would go. On the way back you would know who it was because they would play Waltzing Matilda or, you know, some Kiwi song and you knew exactly which country they were from. But we couldn't … I said I wouldn't know who it was, but I said it is an Australian or it's a Gherkka or whatever, you know. And that was rather sad, because that is very moving when you hear that. What brought you back from Malaysia? Posted back. I came back at one stage because my father died and that … I was booked to go to Thailand and then on to England 'cos I was taking my leave up there with my Welsh friend and so I didn't then. I just … Bridget … called Bridget up and she went to Thailand on her own and I came back home and then I went up again. But no, I did the 2 years and then I was posted home. Where were you posted then? Oh I think I was at 1 Mil. again, I can't remember. What does that say? Oh, I need glasses. Never mind. Never mind. It says, it says, it says 9RAANC training. Yes, yes, yes, I remember, right. Yes, I came back and I went to South Australia and I became the Assistant Director of Nursing Services over there because they don't have one - no other reason - and the Adjutant in charge of the CMF unit. So that was kind of … really an administrative post and … because you are training under people and I just had to organise them, their training schedule. And then I came back to Melbourne and went to the CMF unit back here. I forget whether it was 6R .. no 7, no 6, 6RMM, well wait a moment, that is when I was an OR ,3RAANC, yes 3RAANC. Ok. And, so I did some time there, and then I was posted to … Mornington. … Mornington with the little … it was 6 unit that was down there. There was a big signals unit that is now Watsonia, but it was a band unit and the other thing that was down there was the apprentice school and they were rather nice to look after. The young apprentices. Right. Were you reading, did you know a bit about Vietnam before it happened? Before you were called in? Not really, no, no. Only really that I had the impression that I wasn't really happy about going to Vietnam to be perfectly honest, I was already posted to New Guinea. And I had friends up in New Guinea in the hills that I knew that I would be able to see and that I hadn't seen for years - she had also trained with me - and I thought this is good, and then I was called down and told no they were changing it and I was going to Vietnam. And do you mind and I said, "well, yes, but I have got go, I have got to go", you know and I wasn't terribly happy about it. Not because of the fact that we were involved in the war or all that political stunt that was going and all that business because … and the scene had been made for good or bad reasons between, you know, two or three countries and what can you do? I mean, we are in the Defence Force. Uhu. So, that didn't kind of prey on my mind, but I didn't like it. It is not a place I like and it is not a people I like particularly. Where were you sent? Em Vooltow, where the hospital was and we used to visit some of the other places and the 8 Field Ambulance, which was further up. Describe the hospital at Vooltow. Well interesting in my time because they started off, I think, with something very primitive. It was really a field ambulance and then it became a clearing station and then it became … well more than a clearing station, a casualty station and then it became the hospital it was and it had a theatre. We had physio. There were 2 major wards like that - they were really 4 - 4 wards, but they were like that and there was a central corridor going through and it went straight through to ... On the left was the triage … was the intensive care unit, further down was the triage, and of course the helipad which stopped at the end and of course everybody came into the triage first for sorting and immediate work. To the back of that was the theatres. The theatres we all at the back.. How many theatres? There was 2 I think, 2 theatres. Right. And em … Any other special facilities? Mortuary .. and mortuary. Mortuary. Yes they had … oh yes, because they used to send up specialist doctors for three month stints and there was pathology and X-ray and dentist and oh, they didn't want really for those things. We didn't always get … we didn't have things like the neurologist which was a sad thing in some ways because we had to send them up to Phnom Tam (??35.1) where the Americans were. What about a psychiatrist? Yes, we had a psychiatrist, yes. And what was your part in all of this? Where were you? I had the medical order, I was in charge of the medical order which was … and the infectious disease … because I had infectious disease on the end of mine, then medical, then the passageway, then the medical again. And em … What sort of medical cases were you getting? Well, a lot of them had eh … we got some different things in that some of the boys were affected by the food or the diet they ate, and they would get bowel complaints and some stomach complaints. We had one boy that really got thinner and thinner and thinner and it wasn't just worms, because that too happened, but you see and he died. Why did he die? Because we got him better and he went down, it was strict instructions what to do down at the rehab. area, down at the pool and the rehab. centre and he overdid it, you know, he drank up and he did this, that and the other which troopies do and he had a heart (??36.2) Because he had just put weight on from being terribly, terribly, thin and wasting and he had to just take things slowly. But those things happened which were jolly heartbreaking when you have worked on them for a long time and you, you know, managed to get them to eat sensibly and just start to turn a corner. We had infectious diseases, we had hepatitis and we had some, of course the venereal things. What else? We had lung … a few lung problems with the boys and we had … em What sort of lung problems? Polio we got, we got a polio patient. You wouldn't believe, would you, in the services? What sort of lung problems did you mean TB or … Oh well we got pneumonia … and no, no, I don't know that I … if they ever got or it became a tuberculosis infection, I would have known because they would have come back to Australia because they weren't … coming. They left us when we could get them out. We got them … if they weren't … if we couldn't get them well enough to go back up the front, then they had to come home and Air Force came in and they came in each week and we had a … what we called the medical "dust off" each week for Australia. And the big bus would come and we would get them well enough to be able to fly home and they came and they mostly came to 1 Military Hospital I think. Which was the equivalent then of your hospital in Curay? Yes, it was, yes, yes, that is exactly right, they were sent home, just in that way. So you had some of them there for quite a long time? Yes you did, you go to know some of them for quite … but we did … the turnover had to be fairly quick. I had them for marginally longer, I suppose, than the surgical ward, because the surgical ward did their theatre stint on them for different wounds they had and then they would sometimes leave them open. They had a new way of treating things then. And then they'd come back em … they might go for second closure or they might come to Australia and have second closure. Em … I did a stint, to my horror, in ICU, in which I had never worked before, of course, and em … one of the girls got stressed on my ward and I went down to work this night because I used to give the girls every alternate Sunday off, so that … because mostly your Senior Sister would be off on a Sunday and I thought, well that is a bit odd, because they weren't getting, they weren't able to go to a barbecue or do anything you see, so I used to swap with mine. And I would go … do every second Sunday and of course I go down this day, on the evening shift, and there is Mikelski and I said, "what are you doing here?" I said, you shouldn't be here, I said, "you are supposed to be in RCU." "I am not working there." And I said "What?" And she just refused to go, and then I kind of looked at her and she said, "I can't go there, I can't go there." And I said, "alright, that's ok." And I said … cripe … I had to go there myself, and that wasn't too ok, but I did. And, eh, I think my basic nursing helped me absolutely because I could still assess patients by appearance quite a lot. I knew if they were … their blood pressure was dropping, or if they were … something else … if they were breathing too quickly … and by those … just doing the ordinary common obs. that we used to do, I didn't have to rely on pathology … I still didn't have to really rely on it too heavily to make some decision. END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1 SIDE B, TAPE 1 … but when the heart machine went off, and that was a friend of mine that was in there on that heart machine, I nearly had a fit and I raced around the corner you see and I said, "what are you doing, what are you doing?" and eh I said "are you wriggling, are you moving?" … "yes, yes", he said, "I wasn't comfortable, and I thought I would just … " and I said "don't do it, don't do it" So, I said, "I thought you would be doing that kind of thing" and one of the orderlies came in and I said, "turn this machine off", I said, "I can't stand that noise", I said, "turn it off" and I said "take out the reading please." And I said, "don't go wriggling around, push your buzzer" I said, "do you see what you have done, you have set the machine off." But he was alright, I could tell he was alright. Yes. Now, I looked at him and I knew he was alright, he wasn't having a heart thing. And I get outside and there is a sheet of paper and I thought, well I know he is alright, but I had better get doctor to read this, because I can't. So you had to, the doctor came up, you know, after. Do you remember any other incidents, particularly memorable occasions? Only the boy that we were going to send home. He had, we think, at that time, we wouldn't know the final thing, I don't … I wouldn't know the final thing … but he was in town, Vooltow township shopping for little bits to take home because he was going home and he came back to the hospital because he collapsed in there. They raced him back and brought him into my ward of course and we had to do a spinal tap. We weren't sure whether he had had a haemorrhage or a tumour or a bleed, or what had happened. So doctor did a spinal tap and he said, "no, the pressure is wrong" and this has happened and that has happened. He said he will have to go up to Long Tan and he was one of the ones who had to go to Long Tan. So we still had him on a stretcher on the floor and I was sitting with him, and we had some lines into him already, and then they rang for the … dust off the chopper and the chopper was coming and we got all ready and they said, the fellows from the radio room said they are coming, they will be here, you know in X minutes. Right. So we got ready and we got him ready and we lifted him on the stretcher and we took him down. And I walked down the end to the helipad with him and we were waiting there and then someone came screaming down, "no, no, no, you will have to wait longer, it has been diverted to a road accident" which I was furious about. It was some unit having a party and it was all full of these stupid Vietnamese women and I was really livid and I thought, oh. So I said to the boys, "Come on, we will go back inside" and they said "Oh, we could just go under the … " and I said "No -oo" I said "we are going inside," I said "he is too … he can't stay out here" I said "we are going back in the air conditioning" so back we go, and then they came, but it took longer. Now I can't say that I can blame that, but then we got him on the chopper and away he went and he went up to Long Tan. Now, you see, the next morning I rang up to enquire what was happening because I wanted to know, and sitting with him all that time, he was going home, you know. And I thought, this is terrible and he died, he died, and I thought this is shocking. And I wished he had been with us in a way, because I would have written to his wife and I thought it was just terrible, you know to … that kind of thing. Did you get to know a lot of them by just sitting by their beds a lot and getting to know them? You would write for some of them. Some of them couldn't see, because they would have something wrong with their eyes, you know, so you might write their letters for them or things like that. Em, to a certain extent, but as I say they weren't with us as long as the people in Japan were with us, sort of, because we were moving them out, we had to, we had to do that, we didn't have any other further facilities and it wasn't as large as that up there. Just, it had the ability to do things as they did, but not … it wasn't the size. Did you get news of the war, the progress of the war? Oh yes, yes, and I had a few friends that were up, what we call "the sharp end" because I had trouble when I was in the RCU with a patient there that I was morally challenged by this woman in this bed and it is the first time it has happened to me. I disliked her, and I don't normally … I mean I don't care who the patients are (she was the enemy, I knew she was a Viet Cong). But that wouldn't have worried me, if it wasn't for her attitude. There was something about her (I didn't know what it was - I didn't know what it was) and I had to do some lines and some examinations on her, but I always had the orderly, the medic. with me. The interpreters came in and they were talking to her. Not the interpreters, the intelligence unit people doing their bit, then they would go off again, and then they would come back again and the idea was anyway that we would transfer her to the Rock Hospital and they were going to tell her this because none of the Viet Cong, by word of mouth, wanted to go to the Rock Hospital. They mostly didn't come out. We knew that, we knew … I mean there is nothing we could do about it, but we kind of knew. You can't say that, they were doing it for sure, but we never ever got in to see their POW ward. We don't believe it was terribly full, or that there was much there. But, she had something about her and it worried me to such an extent, she was … something about her look, and I that night went back and I rang up to Nui Dat, where the Fire Support Officer was and I said, I want you to do me a favour if you can. I said "don't do it if you can't do it," but I said "I want to know how this woman became prisoner or what is it?" I said, "we have got one … " He said, I know who you've got, "a little old lady who fell over the tree" and I said "yes", she was a dear little old lady, I don't know what she was doing up the tree but … . and then he said "you've got, yes" he said "I know who you've got" and he said "I'll just do a check out and" he said "I'll come back to you." And I said, "Well, I am worried about it because" I said "it has challenged me" and I said "I want to know why." And apparently she had killed a child on a bicycle with a spanner and that's when they caught her. I don't know whether she thought the child was helping the wrong side, or what it was, but I thought for a woman to do that, just upset me terribly, I thought, how could she? What did you mean by the Rock Hospital? Oh, it is the Republic of Korea, they had a hospital there. Because we used to take the odd patient across to them. They also had a midwifery section and I was the only midwife in my time when I was in Vietnam and we had one occasion to use my skills then and then I went off with her and took her to the Rock Hospital too and I don't know what happened to her, but she really was … came in to us. Her problem was TB. The fact that she came in to labour was incidental and the fact that she wasn't coping with it was due to the TB. But I … nobody, we were kind of trying to work out why she was so distressed and getting in to such a state you see and I said, would you get an interpreter. Somebody get an interpreter and the first thing I asked her was how many children. Well she had heaps, so it wasn't that at all, it was the chest, she couldn't cope with the labour with the chest. So we got rid of her over to the Rock., so. When did you come back from Vietnam? I nursed a baby up there too. So we had quite a variety just the same didn't we? Yes you did. But you didn't have the injuries? The war … the casualties from the … in your ward? From my ward I took the baby. I took it from the surgical ward. It was a surgical patient. They had amputated the leg. We would have to amputate the leg. Now I can't know the beginning of that, from their end. But I took it from them because they kept carrying it around all day. And I said to the Ward Sister up there, "why are you carrying that baby around all day?" The baby was, I suppose, not exactly walking, but certainly would have been able to get around, I can't think of the age now. And I said "why are you carrying … around all the time?" And they said "oh, you know", it is better or something because of this, that the other and I said "no, no, no", I said "you shouldn't do that", I said, "You shouldn't do that" I said "even his parents wouldn't do that." And so in the end they said, "well we don't want him up here because it is a nuisance" and we have got this and this and I said, "Right, well bring him down here." So he came down and I said to the boys "Now fellows" I said "I don't want any swearing, any bad language" I said "you have got this little person here" and I said "just be nice" and they thought it was great, they really thought it was great. They couldn't have been better. They were like a lot of little nursemaids and they just had … they looked after him and they took the … some of them could speak a little bit of Vietnamese and that was good, because he understood. So he must have been a year or so, yeh. Ok, when did you come back from Vietnam? I didn't do my full time because I was posted back to go to the Major Schools at Healesville. And the place was running down in any way, it was finishing and they sent another officer up poor thing. She had to do the cleaning up and closing up and all that dreadful business. Thank God I had come home, but I came home. Oh dear me, I can't remember, it was something like May? May '71. Yes, 71, yes. And then you did a Senior Officers' Course. Yes, yes. Was there anything more in your nursing career that you want to talk about? What were you doing in Singapore? Oh lovely, lovely posting. I was the Australian Matron in charge of the Brits. I had a counterpart down at Chengi Hospital which was the big base hospital and midwifery section. I was on the other end of the island at Woodlands Naval Base Hospital and my bosses were naval officers - British Naval Officers and I had … a majority of my staff was British. I had one New Zealand Sister, one Australian Sister and I had a Warrant Officer that was Australian and, I think, one Orderly that was Australian. The rest were all Brits. And it was a very pleasant atmosphere and it was very good. And we had a lot of sick boys there that we … we got malaria there, bad malaria, that we have to send them off quick smart up to Chengi eventually and we used to get a lot of road accidents and a lot of traumas that were pretty bad and we used to sometimes have to deal with the locals who had accidents and so we would just do emergency and then take them to their own hospital. That was my first initiation into taking a patient that was terribly sick to the Singapore hospital and they said they couldn't do anything unless he paid his $3 - he had to pay $3. So wasn't I lucky that I had some money on me, and I just paid it because I thought this is ridiculous. And I thought what would we do here? If we make people pay. It is coming. I hope it is, I hope it is, I think everybody should be able to give a token gesture. So you have completed a career and retired have you? Yes, I became … well I went … I did my time to age limit completely, yes, because, well I didn't know what I was going to do when I came out. I didn't know whether I might do some part time or what I would do and then I thought no, I have had enough, you know. So then I took on too many things. Have you been connected with service organisations? Yes. Which ones? Well I am returned nurse, so I belong to the Returned Nurses' Club. Now, I don't go on their committee for a very good reason that I am on too many others. I belong to the Florence Nightingale Ward Nurses' Trust which I enjoy and we have a Sub Investigation Committee and a Trustees, and I am a Trustee, and I have got 5 people on my books at the moment that I have to look after, so that keeps me running around a bit. They are all quite elderly and they are all ladies. They are truly gentle women and some of them just need some help now and then because they are people who didn't grow up in the age of superannuation or anything like that, so their interest is dwindling away by the day, so we help them. And we help them sometimes with equipment or if they have got to renew their (??13.3) or some little difficulties happen. And that is very nice work and they are nice people. You know, I can go and sit with them and talk with them and it is good. I belong to the Royal Australian Army Nursing Association. When I first came out of the army, as I was in my last year in the army, I was the National Secretary and I stayed the National Secretary for 10 years and I thought enough is enough. I couldn't cope with it any more. I don't have a computer, I don't have an e-mail or a fax. I didn't have any of that beaut. stuff and I used to type away on my little typewriter and get all that stuff done. Endless interstate phone calls and I thought no, no, no, I can't … it is time somebody else did it. Because this was my second stint. I started it as the Secretary in the inaugural meeting. When was that? In Sydney, when I was working in Sydney. It was formed … it started there and became a national thing. And of course I was their first Secretary and that is when it started, and then of course I kept going for a while when I was at the barracks and then I passed it off and then of course there I was again with it. I felt that when I got out of the army that somebody else should do it, so they did for a while and then they handed it back to me. So then I … Jan McCarthy does it now. So … Did you ever join the RSL? Oh yes, oh well, you see Returned Nurses' Club is … ..part of it? Yes, it is a sub-branch of the RSL at ANZAC House. Do you march on ANZAC Day? I used to, I don't march too well now, I am having a little trouble with the arthritis, so yes, I used to march. With the nurses? Yes, I used to march … no I used to march out the front because they wanted me to call them in to order and they wanted me to do all that because I had been the Colonel and they wanted the Colonel out the front and I thought, this has to stop. And I used to think that their President should be there to be honest and I used to like … I used to always insist on all the ones who had grey uniforms - because a lot of them had their old uniforms left - marching in the front row because it looked nice. But I don't now by going to their luncheon, which they have the same day after the march, so I see the march and I go in then. Tell me about the Veterans' … Vietnam vets memorial. You didn't go to that one. Why not? I can't tell you much about it, I just didn't want to go. I JUST DID NOT WANT TO GO. What made you … ? Oh the Vietnam Veterans (?), I had nothing to do with that. I knew about when it was, but I wasn't interested. The one that was more important was probably the nurses' memorial which went up and I wasn't particularly well to be honest and I thought no, I can't do this, I really can't do it. And I thought it would be very emotional and there were a few things about it. I have got a sister up there and I probably could have gone up with someone and stayed. I went to the dedication of the site, I went to that, but I just didn't, I thought there would be crowds and crowds up there and I thought, no, I just didn't, I thought no I can't do this and I sat down here and watched it and taped it. What is your best memory of your time in the army as a nurse? I am just glad I was. I don't know. A best time? I don't know. What made you glad what is it about the experience that makes it so ..? I think the work, the kind of work, the kind of strong camaraderie that we had together when we are working. I suppose those patients are a little different because they are of us, although the girls that are emotional now, you see if there is 2 girls have TPI and that has upset me because I don't think that they are so stressed. I don't see this and I think of all the people and the POW Sisters from the Second World War who had to wait years and years. Imagine being incarcerated for the length of the time they were, and they didn't get TPI. And all the numbers of people that are getting TPI for Vietnam, the thing that hurts me most, I suppose, is that there is so many of them. No all, but there are many, many of them and one of the boys girls husbands who was there says he is very disappointed with a friend of his. It is - they have got jobs. You see you are not supposed to have TPI if you have a job. They very thing is argumentary isn't it really? And I just thought, that is terrible, you know and I just thought these 2 girls, well one of them was there in the theatre when I was up there and most of her emotional problems came from the fact that she had tied herself up with someone up there and like everybody in life, you have to get over these things. She came back, I think, yes she got married, it didn't work out within a very brief time and I think all that is where her stress eminates from. So what kept you from getting stresses by this? I didn't see Vietnam quite the same way as they did to start with and I was there at a later time. Perhaps there was some blow-ups where those girls maybe knew some of the people who were on the vehicles, whatever, whatever, but I wasn't there at the same time and I look back at the POW's who were just something else again and I can never forget them. For they all were on the verandah in Korea and I just couldn't forget those fellows.
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Victorians at War - Oral History Project