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Joan Johnstone Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand 20th December 2000 - tape 1 (1hr 4mins)
Joan Johnstone interviewed in Toorak 20th December 2000 by Ina Bertrand. Now can you start telling us where and when you were born? Thank you. Yes, I was born in Garden Street, South Yarra on 25th December 1923. I was the second child of my parents. My parents had both lived in South Yarra for many, many years and I think Dad was born in Richmond, my mother was born in Bendigo, so I was actually a fourth generation born there. And what was your father's work. My father was, at that time, an apprentice builder. Oh. And by apprentice I think in those days he was given jobs by fellows he knew who had work, but they thought he might be … so he was never taught in a way of skills. He was taught in a way of learning from each other. Right, ok. He was never … Where did you go to school? I went to, my first school was in Tooronga Road, East Melbourne. I think they called it Caulfield Central in the early days. I started at a very early age because my eldest sister was totally blind and when she was … it was meant for her to attend the school, she attended there and - nearly 2 years different in our ages - an when she was 5, I was 3 and a bit and I used to take her to school. Right. And so I'd take my dolls and she would take her slate. And secondary schooling? I went to various other schools, I also went to Toorak Central, but my secondary school was University High. I was fortunate enough to pass the entrance exam then and I had 2 years there. Only 2 years because of, my Dad had a friend who was the with the (??2.4) one of the Managers in at Consolidated Press. And they needed an office girl and he suggested that I take the job because jobs were scarce for young people and I don't think my parents really could afford a uniform and things like that in these days. There was no money around. And so I only had 2 years there, but I went to work for Consolidated Press. How old were you then. I had just had my 14th birthday in December, that December. Right. What sort of work were you doing there? I was junior office girl with a (??2.9) switchboard there with 3 lines and 10 extensions. We took calls for The Sydney Daily Telegraph and The Womens Weekly and they were mostly circulation for the papers and distributions and newsagents and people wanting the patterns out of The Womens Weekly. People ringing in with social news for the social editress and a lot of excitement in the papers at that time with the war pending and I can remember speaking with Geoffrey Tennyson who was one of the earlier war correspondents and he was a Sydney telegraph bloke and he called in to Melbourne to speak with the staff there that he knew at the Melbourne office and em … it was rather daunting and thrilling to meet such people, so … So did you, were you already interested in events and kind of newspaper content when you went there? Eh … no, I was interested in the way that the news for The Womens Weekly was gathered, particularly … eh … there were just little partitions in the office and I would hear the social editress interviewing people as they came in for talks. And seeing things published and seeing how those things were gathered and put in that was always, that was interesting. So it was almost like a continuing of your education? Oh yes it was, it was. There were a couple of spare typewriters about and em a very lovely lady was the secretary and she suggested that … I had a lot of letters, envelopes to address because people wanting patterns and things to send out. (??4.8) use the typewriter and tap out two fingers the addresses and things that were necessary and with operating the switchboard, when I eventually did go into the army, when I had just had my 18th birthday, I knew my way around a typewriter and around a small switchboard and I knew how to handle incoming calls and pass them through. And so, I was able to say, "Look I am a telephonist." So this was all training on the job though, you didn't do any of that at school? I had none of this at school. Why do you think they gave you that job when there would have been young women who did have that kind of training? I don't know, I was interviewed and asked if I was good at maths and I said, "I don't think really good" and I had said "keep an account book" and apparently my handwriting was good enough and I think the other things developed, the other things developed. Right, did you feel lucky having that job? I didn't like leaving school. I hated leaving school because I felt I was just on the fringe of becoming a student for the first time. I was taking the lessons to heart and so interested in the wonderful teaching that came there at the Uni High that, for the first time we had an awareness that there was something in the world outside of me. And … em … this is what developed, this sense of … there is so much more, there is so much more out there in the way of education, yes, that was just wonderful. Why they chose me, I don't know. All they were looking for was someone who could handle the little switchboard and add up a column of figures and keep the little petty cash books in … I think there was about £25 in it and looking after the stamps. And that was … I was adequate for that task, so. You said that you were aware of the war coming, what sort of things made you … do you remember, an awareness? I had been aware, I had been aware for some time because my Dad and his mates would play cards at home a couple of nights a week and so on. I could hear the men talking and the inference was that some of those blokes had missed out on the First World War, because they were not quite old enough to go. Dad was born in 1900 and so when war broke out in 1914 he was only 14. And he was a late developer as far as growth goes. He was quite short apparently and it wasn't until he was 16/17 that he started to grow up a little bit and get a little bit of height. And he was 6 ft tall by the time I knew him, he was a big, tall man he was. There was always that sense of having missed out on what happened and they were going … when it came again, they would go. So I knew it was going to come again because they had spoken about it. And things, we had just gone through a depression and there was not much money about and Dad was out on strike … the timbers workers went out on strike and em it was a while before Dad had a steady job which was able to pay any sort of money at all and I heard him talking to my mother and he said that when the war came it would be no good being rented properties, he would try and look around and see if he could find a place and he could put a deposit on so that it could be paid off and Mum and the 3 girls - there was another girl by this time - could be quite safe. And so he found a little timber place in Bonbeach which was only about 4 or 5 doors from the beach and Dad would have worked on it and with his bush carpentry and doing temporary jobs - they were quite obviously temporary jobs. Somebody asked once if our house was built on the side of the hill because he had added on a room that was squiffy floor, but it was a happy, very happy home. And I knew that Dad was … we were going there because when the war came Dad would em … I think it was about 1937-38 that we went there. I joined the Bonbeach Life Saving Club and we had a dance every Sunday night and it was at one of these dances that I heard that war had been declared. Right so that's what, how you found it out? Yes. Did you immediately want to join yourself? No, I had no thoughts whatsoever. Women didn't join the forces. I wasn't a nurse, and so there as no thought in my mind about joining the army. Dad was away. So he did join immediately? He joined, not immediately, he joined in April/May of 1940, just before his 40th birthday. 39 was the limit, you had to be 39 or under to join and he was … got everything tidied up as far as the house was concerned and he did his training - it was with the 8th Division. Went across to … em … went across to Singapore and was taken prisoner by the Japanese there. We knew in February '42 that em … that the Japanese had taken the 8th Div. and we didn't know for sure whether Dad was alive or … or prisoner, we didn't know for some time. How did you find out? Through newspapers and letters and things that came through, and I think there might have been something official went to Mum, but that was just … it was presumed he was taken prisoner at that time. And I had a girlfriend who was a couple of years older than me - Dorothy Romwell - and she was, a couple of years older and little bit more worldly than me, but we had become good friends and she lived quite near me, a couple of doors away, and she suggested one day that we go off and join the army. I was amazed and I said, "Why not, let's?" Were you still working in Consolidated Press at that time? No, I had changed jobs. Dad worked at Careeras and he said that the … you know … always aware of the finances … when we were working at Careeras and making much more money doing factory peace work. And I was earning, as an office girl, very, very small money. And so he suggested that I go there. He had left to be in the army by the time I went to Careeras and I was (cigarette??11.8) for a while, but I didn't like it. I didn't like it, I would go home every night stinking of tobacco and I just … I just wasn't happy with, with that. That may be a part of the reason that you wanted something else? No. No? I changed from there to em … this lass that I joined the army with, she worked with Patterson Leonard Bruce. And I said, "I don't like this smelly dirty job" and she said, "Oh, come to Patterson Leonard Bruce, our men are … we are short men because, we are short of workers because the men have all … gone to … enlisted" and so I went there and I was in the glove department there which was why, on my enlistment papers, it is shown that I was a salesgirl. A salesgirl, I was at Patterson Leonard Bruce for a very short time and the war was well and truly in its (??12.7) then, and it was … it was at em … at one of the functions that Patterson Leonard Bruce had monthly for the troops and service … and did have dances and so on at … I met soldiers and my first love and all of that sort of thing. Was it then an exciting sort of life for a young girl in Melbourne in war time like this? It was, it was. How did you spend your leisure time, besides dances? How often were the dances? Well those dances were once a month they had a staff get together when the troops were entertained, but Saturday night there was a dance at Frankston that we would go to, Sunday night there was the (??13.4) Club had a lovely dance on Sunday night … em … sometimes through the week, but, not a lot of activity. Living at Bonbeach we were 20 miles out of town, working in town and getting home was an hour's travel in the train, getting home at 9. And there was a meal, and had to be up early in the morning, there was no television in those days, radio was the thing, we would listen to radio, but there was not a lot, not a lot. We had lifesaving rehearsal, we had the exercise classes perhaps a couple of times a week. Things like that were my interests in those days. Did the lifesaving club have to replace men with women too? Well that followed naturally … em they always had their women's teams as well as the men's teams … em and … as the lovely tall young fellows went off and they married and went off most of them, most of them … they were just that little bit older than the younger ones, the ones I was with … em … the first, the first death that I heard of was a young lad I had been in the lifesaving club, a boy called Miller who was killed in the Middle East. He was badly wounded and had a lot of damage done to his eyes. He was in hospital in the Middle East and they were waiting to fly him home, or to get him home for more treatment on his eyes and the hospital was bombed and he was killed that way. That was … that was dreadfully sad, that was the very first death that really, really got to me. Did that make you worry more for your father? No, I never worried about Dad. Dad was a man, he had always been so capable and if he could … if he was safe, he would be right. If he hadn't died, he would … Mum was very worried about Dad and I think we missed him, we missed him more than really worried I think. What about general life during the war were there shortages of things? Tell me about rationing for instance. Well of course I wasn't a housekeeper so rationing didn't worry me. Mum had that concern. But with Dad away, she had coupons. She wasn't a great cook, so she didn't use lots of sugar and stuff like that. Mum was a very basic sort of a person in the household. She was … Mum was a stage person. She was a singer and entertainer and had been all her life. And was a writer and she had friends and they would scribble songs and write little operettas and put on shows for the Red Cross and things like that. Housekeeping was secondary to Mum. And em … so I never ever knew of any great shortage once I was in the army and if I went home on leave I was given extra coupons to cover me. What about before you went in the army? What about clothing, did you have enough coupons for clothing? I thought that … that must have come … yes we did. I didn't, I have never had a lot of clothes, we had never had a lot of money. I had an uncle who was a Bottle-oh - that's Mum's brother and had been all his life, God love him, and when he was just a lad his father, my grandfather had said, "We can't give you too much." My grandfather was a hairdresser in Chapel Street before he died. And he gave his son a horse and dray, said, "Look you might be able to you know, see what you can, you might be able to make odd money." Odd jobs was the thing in those days. Scrounging round and trying to find something to make a quid in those days. And so that is what Uncle Billy did. He was a Bottle-oh. And they didn't have the … they didn't have the bins for clothing … they didn't have the Brotherhood of St Laurence and places and like second hand clothes, they didn't have those shops then. But Uncle Billy always had what we called the rag bag and if we wanted or needed anything, Mum would say, "Go down and see what Uncle Billy has got in the rag bag and we would go down and fossick and always we were able to come up with something. We made do, it was a make do time. Ok, so all this changed when you joined the army? Yes, yes. What did you wear in the army? We wore khaki and … the uniform … the material in our uniforms was a lovely, lovely fabric, very similar to the material used in the officers' uniforms of the day, because the men's had a sort of a baggy, khaki, twill sort of cloth that was really horrible. But their uniforms were very, very smartly made. They were a belted jacket with a straight skirt. We wore nile stockings and flat, brown shoes that were lace-ups. But they were very good quality, everything was very good quality. A khaki shirt with a darker khaki tie. We were given 3 shirts, a couple of ties, one with a uniform, I had a spare skirt at one time. We had summer drill uniform dress … em … Hats? Heavy winter overcoat, yes and a khaki hat with a snap brim. All this was provided, you didn't pay for it? Not one penny. Underwear was provided … em … monthly sanitary pads were provided. Right. We were very, very well looked after, very well cared for and you could tell that the … the women who had been enlisted … Cybil Irving for the AOR's and (??19.3) study (??19.3) carefully what their women … what their girls would need to look good, about take care of themselves. What was the enlistment process? I went to the Melbourne Town Hall and filled in a form which I had to take home and get parental permission because I was under age. 21 was the legal age then. And my mother gave me permission, on condition I wasn't sent away, which brought a giggle to the faces of the officers when I finally went in for their recruitment thing and eh … I was asked what jobs I did and I said I was a switchboard operator/telephonist. Didn't say anything about typing at the time and so I was enlisted as a typist … as a switchboard person/telephonist. We did our rookies at the Glamorgan in Douglas Street, Toorak, which was the junior school for Geelong College, I think. And I have a grin every time I go past there, I had my first lesson in discipline there. I eh … with a couple of girls we were told to sweep the tennis courts, which we did and there wasn't a blade of grass or speck of dust. And then, half an hour later the order came out, yard duty, sweep the tennis courts and we said … I complained … I went up and I said, "This is wrong, look we have just done all that," and I was taken up and given a great lecture on discipline. But if somebody's life was in the balance, he had been shot by the time I argued. I never once disputed an order, I accepted everything I was told to do and did it, and that was a most valuable lesson, most valuable and it was done beautifully. I wasn't made to feel bad because I had argued, I understood that. So it was a deliberate lesson, they had done it quite deliberately? I think so, I think so, and I think the fact that I retaliated was a tick rather than anything else. Right. Because they didn't want you to be wishy-washy. They wanted people with a bit of guts and a bit of backbone, they want you to understand. Who were your officers there? Were they regular army people or had they been brought in? They were all women and all enlisted ladies. So it was only women in the teaching as well? Yes, yes. So they would have been finding their feet too? Yes, yes. But they were taken from the ranks of Girl Guides, Red Cross, people who had experience, women who had experience with women, mostly. What other kinds of lessons did you have? What were the more formal kinds of training that you … Oh, we had to learn badges of rank, we had to learn the difference between a sergeant and a corporal and a lieutenant and how they came and there was a sub lieutenant and a lieutenant and a captain and the actings and what badges of rank were and who got the salute, and who didn't get the salute and the fact that if you got to be as high as a major, that was the one where it lasted all your life, you didn't drop it at the end of the war, but I believe that has been changed now. All rules are made to be broken I am told. And I don't think that exists any longer, although I know of women who are still accorded their title. I know a lovely, Major Jess Perkins, and she is quite of called The Major. There's others, I just mentioned her, she was the one. What other things did you have classes in? Whilst we are at school we were taught to march, we were taught drill, we were taught marches all around Toorak. So it is general fitness? General fitness. Not weapons training? Not weapons training, although there were some girls who did go on to gunsites around the coast, but that training came when they were allocated to that job. Yes, we went through all that. We were taught army procedures, army forms, your pay book and the numbers so that you can say my pay book was your A82 or 84 or whatever it was, I have forgotten. And we had lectures by a local doctor. As it happened I … because I went to this doctor later on, I knew, Dr Mona Blanche was the lady who came along to give us lectures in hygiene and cleanliness and spoke to us in a way our parents never ever did about keeping your bodies clean, what not to do with Tampax that were inserted. I think there were Tampax a the time, I am not sure. And how easy it was to contaminate the body by … to make sure you were safe using 2 instead of 1 and just taking out 1 and leaving the other which rotted - horrible things like that. But things you needed to be told because they had never been discussed, we didn't know about that. Heavens we were just used to having a period, let alone knowing about all these other things. We were not given any definite sexual lessons, although the subject was touched on lightly. But we were told that if ever, if ever there was a need to … that we had a concern about something that might have transpired, to immediately go to our officer in the chain of command. And did you feel confident in that? Did you feel you could have done that? Absolutely, absolutely. I was never shown anything or had anything done to me which made me lose any respect that I had for these people who were put in charge of us. I had every confidence in them. What about general daily routines like, did you have to make beds like they do in hospitals, and … Yes, we were … we were taught to make … it was the first time … I knew you had to make the bed, I knew you put the sheet on and the blankets and that was it. If you had time, otherwise you would just leave the bed with the bed unmade. But that didn't happen in the army? That didn't happen in the army. We were in a dormitory, this was after, yes we were in a dormitory at the Glamorgan, and we were first of all shown our pallyass and mattress which we (??25.5) and then we were given 2 sheets and told to … with right sides together … they went on to the bed. So you put the one on the bed with the right side up and the next went on with the right side down, right sides together, sides even, underneath envelope the things, side them in, turn them in, or put our blankets on (??25.9) army blankets, grey blankets with the blue stripe and the stripe would be down the middle and they would want it to be level and they would stand in the dormitory and look down to see that row of sheets that had been over and … it was beautiful. So you enjoyed the sense of order? I loved it, just loved it, oh yes. Oh yes, yes, I still make my bed that way … the sides and envelope them. What about food? I can't remember the food much. So it must have been ok? The food was fine, I'd say. I remember being astonished at, looking and seeing the big pans with all of the eggs poaching. Poached eggs - the food was very good. Alright, well 6 weeks in Glamorgan you said, is that right? No it wasn't 6 weeks, I think it was 3 I think. Right. I think it was 3 (?? 26.6 ???) on the 6th June 1942, I think it was 3 weeks. (??26.6???) we were allocated to the jobs. The first job allocations went to the big headquarters of the various establishments in town, the big records office needed a lot of staff, because a lot mail clerks there in those places, they all had to be released. And so the first, they went to the records offices, the lines of communication, (??27.1) district finance office where the pay records and family records and (??27.2) adjustments to pay and things like this. They all had GU clerks, men clerks, and they all had to be released. By the time I went in most of those places were filled. For some unknown reason I was chosen with 4 other girls - I think there were 5 of us - to go down to Frankston where (??27.5) family headquarters was re-establishing itself. They had taken over the Long Island Golf Club at Frankston and I was to go down there to look after the switchboard and telephones. And we were the first 5 girls 'to go out into the field' as it was known in those days. Apart from the city. We didn't realise the honour of that until much later, we were the first 5 girls. And because Bonbeach was so close to Frankston I was allowed to live at home at first. The other girls were allocated to little … what do you call … little bed and breakfast places, cottage, holiday places, holiday homes that had their business round the Peninsula, because it was always a bit … a lovely little holiday resort. This was before hotels and so on and these little houses were available to take … guest houses I think they were called. And so they were allocated to these places. But if you lived in close proximity, you could live at home. Well I know one girl lived at Frankston, Valda Zena, there was our Sergeant and … wonderful girl … she got … she got her 3 stripes when she finished her training. Very competent lady - only about 19 or 20 then, if that. And she was our Sergeant. She married soon after the war, had a baby and passed away. She was very young when she died. Did you get any promotions at this early stage? Yes, I was made a Corporal when we went to Sydney - oh about 7 or 8 months after Frankston. The whole unit moved to Sydney. I was made a Corporal and when I came back and I changed and went to Salt, early 1945 I was given my third stripe, I was a Sergeant. Ok, so between 1942 and 1945 you stayed working in office kinds of jobs first in Frankston and then Parramatta? First at Frankston and then em … difficult to explain the situation, but they had their offices, the nucleus of the corps, the pay corps, 2 All Star (??29.5) headquarters … nice … with the pay corps. Command Paymaster's office … because it was the head of the … (??29.6) and … em they were looking to fill up their increment. The War Establishment they called it and they were waiting for men to come back from the Middle East, to have their leave, to be reallocated to go up further north, because this was the big push to get men up north and the Japanese at this time was just pressing in close and of course we had midget subs in Sydney Harbour, we knew Japanese were around, there were search lights going every night and we would occasionally see Japanese planes caught in the cross beam of the search lights. We knew the Japanese were threatening, was very threatening and so, we didn't care what we did, those young lads had to go further north. Didn't stop to think about what sort of fate they were going to, but going … and as our … we got the men together that were needed together, we, the (??30.4) army headquarters moved to Parramatta. We were at a place called Boonside, just out of Parramatta, and all (??30.6) army headquarters was there and the Paymaster's office took over a place, a beautiful big house called Gowan Grey, which had been the home of Sir John Boone, after whom Boonside was named, and it was a beautiful free standing mansion - one, two storeys high with the big turret in the centre and you went and there were the marble tiled floors and the big staircase going up and around and eh. That was used for the administrative headquarters then? Yes, it was used for the Command Paymaster's office. Command Paymaster's headquarters, where I was. I had my little switchboard underneath the stairs, as switchboards were in those days. Where did you live when you were working then? We were in billets. We camped in the various little homes. Boonside Homes were orphanages for young children, orphans, and they were … each individual home was built like a Scottish castle - it was very lovely and we were billeted in one of those. We were the first girls living there, but another 12 had joined us, when we went to Sydney, but we were the first. Another 12 joined us and some girls from Sydney were going to come and join us also, but we were there first and we … this was our first venture into New South Wales and we wondered what sort of reception we would get from the girls from the (??31.7) in New South Wales who were coming to join us and we thought, we've got to start off right, what will we do, what will we do? And so, with a couple of the other girls, in the evening, we would go and, see beautiful blossom trees everywhere - it was just a lovely area - and so we picked blossoms and went home and decorated the … (stupid) … decorated the big room with big jugs and bowls of beautiful blossom. It was really lovely, most unmilitary but it was just lovely and when the new girls came in they loved it, and so we were friends right from the … we stopped the war before it started then. Very friendly with them, we were just all the one group. Ok, did you socialise together outside of work? Em … we were kept pretty busy on the job and there were strict rules about you had to be in at a certain time and we could go to the local pictures and things like that, but there wasn't a lot of socialising as you would call it as … but we … (??32.5) starts again. If we had a day off when we could go in to town, we usually had a mate or someone who would go in and we would have the day in town together. Or wander round and look at the shops. Well by that stage the American soldiers would have been in Sydney wouldn't they? Didn't have anything to do, oh dearie me, didn't see many Americans in Sydney, saw them in Melbourne when I came back to Melbourne of course, but em … when I first went to Sydney the young fellow that I had met in Melbourne at one of the dances, he was in Sydney. He was stationed at Roseberry Racecourse and he would come across occasionally, just to see … and he took me out a couple of times. But it was a strange sort of a relationship … em … the girls used to say, "Oh here's your bloke, good looking isn't he?" - you know, that sort of thing, you know. And we would go off but there was, it was not important to me that he was there. I also had a friend in the navy at the time and I would write letter to him and so on, but nothing was important to me. Ok, except the work? The work was important. Uha. And then your unit went further north and you came back to Melbourne? They went further north and I cam back to Melbourne. And then there was a personal crisis that landed you in the Salt? This lad came back and I realised that … all of a sudden … I don't know, it was like a power switched on or something, I became aware of caring very deeply for this fellow. And I knew he cared very deeply for me, because no matter where I went, he always seemed to be following me and Mum thought he was quite wonderful and she said, "You are like a guardian angel aren't you, everywhere Joanie goes, you sort of turn up." And he said, "I will always look after her, always." Anyway, we don't need the whole of that story, just that things went wrong didn't they? Badly wrong? Things went badly wrong and I was absolutely, absolutely shattered. Absolutely shattered and this is when … I sat with my Mum in St Francis Church one day - I was telling my daughter about this recently and em … and I just cried, I didn't want to see a preacher, I just sobbed. And me Mum was there and every now and again she would put out her hand and touch me, she was there, so warm and loving and wanting to help me. And anyway, I thought, I'll go and see the Colonel at the barracks. This is Colonel Burgeson, and he was a bloke and he was (??34.8) and he suggested that I speak with the Senior AWA's Officer who was there at that time and she was just wonderful and she said, and you want a transfer. And I said yes, I need a change, I don't want to leave the army, I just want … need a change, I just can't go back and face everyone and go through all of that and anyway, the Colonel, the bloke said, I've … Salt were looking for a typist/switchboard operator or switchboard operator with a bit of typing or something like that and em … I had already been made a typist in Sydney and I think, I think the Gods were working with me then too. So, you went to Salt? I went to Salt. Describe what Salt was first of all? Salt was a little magazine, about the size of Readers Digest, I always refer to it, about the size of the Readers Digest and it was published fortnightly for the troops in service overseas. It was called Salt as salt was always a symbol of friendship and also because only one was published for every 3 troops and they had to be passed around for everybody to get them. The men in the field would contribute stories, verse, poems, conundrums, ask questions and we would decipher them, type them out, make sure they were presentable, answer their queries, ring all of the museums and libraries to get answers to the things they wanted to know and em … men, some of the writers on the staff would write about home hints, local news, overseas news, anything that the fellow in the field would be interested in. Everything that the Repatriation Commission which the DVO was in those days, everything that they were planning for the fellow in the field for when he came home, what he would be eligible for. Anything that was pertinent to the wellbeing of the man in the field we printed. How far was it distributed? Did it get to the front? Yes, it got to the front, it went everywhere where (??37.2) sent, mostly, New Guinea, of course, because of our fighting was in that area by this time, but it had been to the Middle East and that. So it early in 1945 when you went there? No, it was. I was there for 3 years, let me see. I was Sydney 1942 .. enlisted '42, we were in Sydney August 42, came back in '43, so it was August '43 when I went to Salt. And talk about the staff, the other people involved there. They were, the men. The men were, they had experience as political correspondents in Canberra, newspaper experience in Melbourne, sports writers, we had a sports writer, Bill Cust, from The Argus or The Age. We had a fellow who was a sports writer, oh Roy Waters. We had Ambrose Dyson, who was an artist from the … the great Dyson family of artists, lovely, I loved him. I just loved these people. We had Fred Hardy as an artist, not as a writer, although he was writing and was having stories published in little magazines like The English Argussy and so on, so he told me. We would often have a chat altogether, Fred Hardy and I and … em … he said to me I am a … he told me then he was a bloody genius and he said those other blokes aren't awake, I am the genius, I am bloody genius, they'll know one of these days, and they certainly did, didn't they. And who was in charge? When I was there a fellow called Massey Sandon was the CO. and he had been a correspondent \newspaper eh … political correspondent in Canberra, but he was there because Mungo McCallum was overseas and I didn't meet Mungo McCallum for a couple of months. He came back from his overseas trip and he was the CO of Salt. Mungo McCallum the First. And he had been a political correspondent (??39.7) or something to do with Canberra. And we had (?? 39.8) who was Senior Editor and he eventually was … see I knew these men as doing the job they were doing, rather than what they had been. It was only in the course of working with them and finding out that they had been with Sydney Telegraph. One fellow was the Chief of Staff of the Telegraph, Leo Bassen, I believe and (??40.2 ?????????????) Joe came back to Melbourne ???????? Yes, he went to Melbourne University, Professor of English, Melbourne University and I think he is the only in Melbourne, apart from (??40.3) Blue Lindsay who is still going and I see him every ANZAC Day. He waves out to me as I am marching and still living in Melbourne. All the rest have gone to God. Mungo McCallum is still going in Sydney. What was the process of making the paper? It came out every 2 weeks, so how did the 2 weeks? It was printed up at Truth and Sportsman up in Latrobe Street. Our offices were in Latrobe Street so I was able to live at home. Like a 9 - 5 job. END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1   SIDE B, TAPE 1 And we did all of the work, all of the layout and things like that and then we had a team who worked up at Truth and Sportsman and where it was printed, packaged. We typed, the girls in the office typed all of the labels that went on the outside for distribution. There was quite a big team on the distribution side and it was all just done automatically, like a business, like a business. So, what about the other girls? Were you just one of several, many? We had a sergeant who was in charge of the office, she was the Office Sergeant, Mavis P(??.9). She was a typist and she was virtually the secretary to the CO. We had 2 girls who were civilian girls who volunteered to do civilian … with the Public Service and so they were assistant typists and they helped with the typing of the lists and checking where the Salt had to go and queries about distribution and helping in that field. (??1.5) one girl and Nancy Still was the other girl. There was a girl called Amy Victor, Amy Victor who was an older married lady and I think Amy was a corporal and she did various work for the writers and they would come in an want things typed out and … em … and then it started off I worked on the switchboard, and it was a beautiful little switchboard to operate. Did the women ever have any part in writing for the magazine or artwork or any of the content of the magazine? Not. The women were just support staff. Yes, just support staff. When the war was over I was asked to do a little thing on my feelings about the war being ended and I wrote that I was … my first thought was one of deep sadness because this wonderful family that I had been … of writers and artists … that I had been involved with, and that we all knew so well. They were all living away from their wives and families and had their problems etc., etc. They were doing the best they could. Leo Bassen went to … oh I don't know, it was just wonderful work they did and the sacrifices that they made. A bit of paper and their interest and their care for the paper, it made it a great journal, it was just a great little journal. Did you get much feedback from the readers? Yes, had lots of letters, lots of letters back em of appreciation and we would also give prizes to some of the em … there was a regular prize given out each issue for the best letter or the best contribution or the funniest question or whatever. And we would post off a canteen order for a set of … they could cash their order in their mess canteen, because it was no good sending money in those days. And em … there was a great feeling of appreciation that nothing that we did was lost. Also, we provided information to "Guinea Gold", which was a newspaper up in New Guinea and a lot of the other cheap newspapers. When final edition of "The Herald" came out of an afternoon, as I progressed from being a switchboard operator into being quite a competent typist, they would come to me and I would … we don't … a wire, a newspaper wire formed. We would put out (??4.5)type?? Someone … one of them .. writers … would pick out the … one of the journos would pick out of items of interest, and I would just immediately fill up this press wire that we sent off. And that went off every night to the … to the other little newspapers in the field further up that were waiting on information to put in their little daily gazettes. Yes, so that was another side thing, apart from the journal. Did it stop when the war ended or did it go on? No, it went on, it went on until May 1946. I left in May 1946 and that was the last issue. I have got a copy of the last issue here, and the last issue was … Did you leave the army at that point? Yes, at that point I was pregnant, I had married and was pregnant and em … I em … the war was over. There were girls who stayed in, they didn't stay in much longer. I think the end of 1946 was the end of it for the girls. Ok, however, it meant your father came home? Yes, yes. Dad came home in October '45, on the hospital ship "Warangi" and we all went in to see him, welcome him home. It must have been a great relief to your mother. It was, it was wonderful, but it was also a great disappointment because he couldn't settle down. I think, thinking it over and having worked with these blokes now for so long, I have come to understand the great sense of bonding that the men had who were prisoners of war. Their lives revolved around each other and he was an older man and looked after the younger 18-19-20 year old kids and the bonding between them was so strong. Dad just couldn't settle down, he made the comment that "his boys" would come, "My boys will be coming to me." He said, "there is plenty of room here and they can come and stay and … they will be coming" and they did. Was it that that made you want to go into Red Cross work? No, I think going into Red Cross work … Or into … back into army? No, no. I married one of Dad's boys who came home. The war was over and the thing to do … the only thing that I knew I could do was … I wanted a normal sort of life. I had been through this dreadful trauma and I … I just didn't know what to do about things and it came to pass that he asked me, this bloke asked me to marry him. My Dad loved him, he was one of Dad's "boys" and I said, "yes" and although we had two lovely girls, he could never … it was just … as badly mixed up in their minds and their thinking and the deep stresses that they had gone through as the Vietnam veterans later went through. For the Vietnam veterans it was realised that they had this need for counselling, and their families needed counselling too, and it is still going on, it is still going on. The Vietnam veterans still need this. Our boys needed it too, and they didn't get it because the awareness wasn't there that they needed it. And if it had been there, that marriage outcome of mine might have been totally different. Because I would have been given … I would have been made to understand what they had gone through and I didn't understand it, so I am sorry about that, I am sorry about that. Did you join the RSL? I didn't join the RSL because I wasn't returned from active service, and so that is none of the … our part was over, we had done what we had to do, we had served and we enlisted and we waited our time and the war was over. And so it didn't enter my head, I married and had a wonderful girl. Em but no, no there was a thing called the Australian Legion which I joined at one time, but my mind wasn't in it. I was trying to be a good wife and mother through terrible times and so I didn't (??9.2?????) RSL's. And yet now you are … just received a recognition for your work. Yes. So, how did this happen? Strangely enough, I think it was about 1982 when the RSL decided to take in those who didn't serve overseas. A lot of men, a lot of men served in Australia who didn't serve overseas and they were not eligible to join the RSL, so it wasn't just the women. And so I em … I still didn't really think about it, but my husband at that time, because I had married again, my husband took my … my enlistment papers, which were the ones we discharged … which I had then, into ANZAC House because. And, it was in December '84 and he paid my membership, and he gave me that … my badge December '84 … my Christmas/birthday present and I was thrilled with that. And how did you become active in it then? I had another marriage break-up and a girlfriend of mine said, "Let's go to the RSL, come and join the RSL they have got a good rep … . Come and join my sub-branch", so I joined her sub-branch, which was a returned and service women's sub-branch, because I wasn't in the sub-branch to start off with (??10.6??) headquarters. I was just a member, headquarters member. We lived down in the Frankston area and so I changed … we both were members at the Frankston RSL, but I wasn't involved there either. I was still working, I was still working at QANTAS Airways. And then (??11.00), I was still doing work, I was with a telephone agency, a telephonist agency and em I had a marriage break-up and this friend of mine said, "Look I belong to the Returned Servicemen's (????11.3???) So what sort of work did you do, what sort of work did you do within this … ? At the RSL? Yes. I'd go into their meeting once a month, it was very nice. They were a great lot of ladies, and I enjoyed being with them and one … after about the second week that I went to a meeting, one lady said, who was involved with the Mental Welfare Committee, said, we need eh … we need help. We have got an outing on Sunday, we are taking the men of the Mental Welfare on their annual outing to this place up near Healesville, and all we want is some assistance on the buses. And I thought, well I could help there, so I volunteered for that. Which got me interested in this sub-committee Group and the network of workers … I will tell you just sitting here and listening to a meeting and becoming involved. It was one of these … they were a wonderful group of ladies who had been in the RSL right from 1945 because … or even earlier … because they had been overseas nurses, VAB's, and they started it off and they were, they were just lovely people. And, so I started off helping with their mental welfare groups and then the lady who was doing the appeals selling the … organising the selling for our little sub-branch of the ANZAC poppies and ANZAC tokens and remembrance poppies. She said that she was … she had had enough and that somebody would have to take it over and I thought gee whizz, that would be something, that would be a busy thing. And one of the ladies, without asking me, said, I suggest Joan Johnstone take it over because I think she would make a good Appeals Officer. And I said, "Well I am willing to give it a try" and so I have been their Appeals Officer ever since. So that got me … How many years is that? About 11, 10-11, I am not sure, time goes by so quickly. Do you march on ANZAC Day? Yep. And have you done that all along? No, I didn't really get an interest until after em after I had finished work and I was looking for something. So it was part of your RSL activism then? Yes, it was … no, part of the AWA's really, because after I had left … I had become interested in the AWA's Association again about 1985 I think, '84 - it has all happened around about the same time, it all sort of gelled in and I went to a reunion of the AWA's Assoc. or the AWA's (??14.1) held at Melbourne Uni and they called out they wanted volunteers to go on their committee, they were short of committee persons. I put my hand up. I put my hand up and I volunteered. And then, so then I came, was offered the Committee of the AWA's Association and gradually the Secretary there became ill and couldn't quite cope with what she was doing, so about '91 I became the Minute Secretary there with the … the Secretary stayed on as Secretary, she had been there since the year dot until she just couldn't continue on any more. I think it was about '94/'95. I think I have been the State Secretary now for em … we don't refer to it really as the State Secretary. I have been Secretary of the Association of Victoria for … since about … for about 6&#frac12, 7 years, something like that. And have you noticed the changes in ANZAC Day in recent years? In the march and who goes in the march? The spirit of the march is still the same, and that is the main thing, I think, the spirit of the march is the same. But as a general rule, we didn't have … we don't have others other than the AWA Association marching in our lot. And it was sad to see sometimes older men carrying … with their grandchildren on their shoulders, and things like that, because the little grandchildren would get tired, and I can understand why they … just to protect the men really, that they said, you know, how often do you see a photograph of some dear old bloke who took his last breath going up The Shrine steps. Some of them might have had a child, it is just, it is just too much … it took all their time to do the march themselves, God love them all, they are just eh … they are just so wonderfully strong and committed. So when you march here, you march in the city to The Shrine? I march to The Shrine and then I drop back, when I have led the march, drop back and pick up my Dad's unit and march along with that. Right. With my young half sister. It's very, very sad. Alright, what was the best experience came out of the war for you? I am still living it. I am still living it. I learned, I learned that the beauty and love of my fellow men, and I include women in it, they are the most, people are the most generous, caring people and I think that that is what has kept me going.
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Victorians at War - Oral History Project