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Ted Kenna Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand 22 January 2001 - tape 1 (1hr 4mins)
Ted Kenna interviewed at Hamilton 22 January 2001. So can you start with when and where you were born? Well I was born in Hamilton to Brian and Emma Kenna and I lived here all me life and I was born on 6th July 1919 … of April it was. Ok, and you have lived here all your life? Yes, I have lived here all my life. In town or out of town? Well actually only a bit from here. Down about … a few streets down to the convent down the road. I went to the convent down the road and eh that's the place going out, that's where I was born. And you went to school in Hamilton? Went to school in Hamilton, got kicked out about … when I was 14 I think. And you got a job here too? I got a job first off at groceries, and then after a few months there I went to eh … apprenticeship of a plumber, but I never quite made the distance there, the war come along and I went to the war. Can you remember where you were when you heard about the war starting? Do you remember how you learnt that the war had begun? Well I actually … no, it is a bit vague, I don't actually. Did you follow the war in the newspapers? Oh yes I did, but I wasn't that keen about it, you know. So, how come you joined the army? Well actually the army wanted me, they called me up so I was … I would have went in any case, but Dad was pretty crook at the time and I never got around to it. Right, so describe the call up. How … you got a letter? Yes, I just got a letter that said report down at … they had an office in Grey Street then, and report down at such and such a date and that was it. Ok, and what was the process of being signed up? They just took you in and shoved a few pages under your nose and you signed it and … And a medical? A medical and that was it. And you were fine and fit? Fit enough to go in, yeah, one leg and one arm, but otherwise all right. Ok, so, you had no choice then about which of the services - you went in to the army and that was that? No, went in the army, rifleman, and that was it. Where did you train? Well, I don't exactly know how long it went, but I had my first leave at Geelong Racecourse. They had it in the camp at Geelong Racecourse, and I think I was three months down at camp. We marched all around the district there and then they sent us up to Darwin. Had you left home before, had you seen much of the country before? No, I hadn't, as I've already said, Dad was on the railways and the only time we ever seen anything - there was 7 in our family - and money wasn't that plentiful and the only time we ever went anywhere I think was a couple of times we went down to Portland. Dad used to get a pass for the family to travel on holidays … and I went down there a couple of times and that was about it. So how did you find your way, when you had to go to Melbourne to enlist? Well, another thing I wouldn't be able to find me way there when I went down because … but to start off you all went in as a body kind of business and you just went as a body. They said to march there, well you marched there and leave when they went in Geelong, and that was it. Did you do a lot of marching by the sound of it? A lot of marching and rifle drill and oh, all the things that make a soldier I suppose. Rifle drill and Bren gun assembly and dissembly and oh, just what a soldier should learn. Did you enjoy the camp life? Yeah, I really enjoyed the camp life. It was really good, but I was, as my officer will tell you now, there is some of them there, that I wasn't a very, very good soldier - a parade ground soldier, I was … but out in the country I was all right. Ok., well after training at Geelong you were sent up to Darwin? Yes. I was sent up to Darwin with 22nd, 23rd I think. Right, ok. And what were you doing in Darwin? Well, just waiting more or less. I think they had an idea that well, we was in a non … we wasn't in the AIF, we was in the military, and I think we were only up there to fill in the space actually. When the second 4th 6th Divi came back from the desert, they split us up and we reinforced the 6th Divi. Still in Darwin? In Darwin. Where were you living in Darwin? We were camped between Darwin and Adelaide river. We were about half way. Ok, and what did camp look like? If you've seen a lot of tents put together, that was it. Right, what sort of floor to your tent? We made floors out of the ant hills up there was where … big hills and we used to break them down, spread it on the floor, wet it and it used to set like concrete, it was very good for a floor. Ok, and what sort of beds? We had to make our own beds. A couple of whatsitsnames and a couple of rides and a … bag or something in between. Hot weather? Yes, it can get very, very hot up there, especially when you're marching and that. Was it hotter than you were used to? Hamilton is a pretty hot place too sometimes? Oh yeah, it is kind of a different heat altogether up there. Somethin' like Brisbane actually. Very sticky and sweatin' all the time in Darwin. Did that cause problems? Did you get tinea and those sorts of problems? No, actually, I had a good run. In fact we had a good run up there as far as tinea and that went, it wasn't so bad. And the malaria wasn't that bad, it wasn't as bad there as it was in Queensland, but eh … So what did you spend your time doing? You were waiting to be ready for anything to happen, but … so how did you fill the day in? Well those bosses of ours up there, they had funny ideas that marching and manoeuvring around the [not clear] was the right thing, which I disagreed a bit, but I wasn't the boss. So they kept you moving all the time? Yes, they kept us moving, otherwise I think might have had trouble on their hands because a bunch of men with nothing to do, well you are in trouble. How often did you get leave? From Darwin we got leave after I was up there over 12 months, once... We come home. You came right back to Hamilton? Come back to Hamilton, yeah, comeback to Hamilton. And what about over the course of a week, did you have days off? Oh no, no, no, one day was the same as the other day. You had to … sometimes you had Sunday off, you know just laying around, but eh … you got a few days like that, but otherwise you was generally marchin' or walkin' and doin' somethin'. And you were there when Darwin was bombed? Yes, actually we were manoeuvring at the time. We were not far out of Darwin itself, you could see the planes and that quite easy and … eh … in fact one lot of bombers, the last lot of bombers, I think they might have wanted to get rid of their bombs. They come down over our area and flew in and of course we were all went in the slit trenches and all the rest of it, but their bombs, they dropped a string of bombs on it but eh … actually they were on … in the ground in between the 8th, the 4th and the 11th so they didn't pick the right spots, so it was good. You were in slit trenches? You had … Yeah. You had fortified the area? Yeah. Did you have any warning of that raid? No, actually not. They just come over and that was it and eh … in fact as far was we were concerned there was nothing there at all, no warning, no … the war was a fair way away too in one's mind. You know, it was over there and all the rest of it and eh … How did you young fellows fit in with the experienced members of the 2nd 4th? I think we fitted in pretty well actually, but of course there was a bit of mumblin' and goin' on that 2nd 4th should be kept as 2nd 4th and not allow the riff raff, shall I say, comin' in to it and eh … but then again one of our officers, 2nd 4th Officer, had been overseas, he lined us all up and he read out afterwards that decorations and all the rest of it that was won … was won by the reinforcements mainly, so that was something against their argument … we were actually one of the mob after a while. Right, then you were sent down to Queensland for jungle training? Yes. So they knew you were going to New Guinea then? We didn't, they did. I have to say. Yes. Where did you go in Queensland? We went right around to the back of Queensland and up to Dutch New Guinea funnily enough, and we landed at a place called Aitape, there was … where that big ocean come in and flooded all up there, that is where we landed. And em, then eh marched from there down to Wewak, where we were took Wewak and eh … Were you fighting along that track? All along that track, yeah. There was only eh … oh bits and pieces all the time, you know, [Danmat] river was one, they were dug in the other side of [Danmat] river, that was about half way. So this was your first experience of real battle then? That is when I first experienced, yes. Can you remember the very first time? Well actually the very first time is the same as first … same as the last. Each time, you know, is eh … knowin' what … fear in his body, he has always got fear and one of the biggest fear of the lot is eh … in his mind is how will be behave? how will he do, goin' in tomorrow? Well, that night is not the best of nights because you know where you are going and why, and especially in the fighting we were in, and its always the same question comes up in your mind. How will I go, what will I do? And you never know until, until eh … Do you talk to each other or is it a very quiet time? Very quiet time, yes. In my mind, that was it. Sometimes one of your mates might come up that night and have a bit of a whatsername … they always get a bit itchy you know and eh you kind of settle them and all the rest, and you kind of should be settlin' yourself, so that is the way it goes. Do you write letters? Write letters? Yes, just before you go into battle? No, I couldn't even write one that … my mother and sister used to "go crook" 'cos they never got letters from me when I was up there, so … So what sort of fighting was it along the track from Aitape to Wewak? Were you in small groups? Yeah, more or less small groups of a scouting party and eh … scoutin' for sections and that as you went along, you always had your scouts out in that section, one section after another, but eh … And what did you find? Well, that all depends on the enemy, what you run into and what you didn't run into. Sometimes you go out and patrol along there it … it might be days and days you wouldn't sight one, but then again they'd open up just like that, boom, and start all over again, so, it was a pretty, I don't know, a pretty "iffy" war, but you were on your toes pretty much, if you don't, well you get left behind. When you did see the enemy, did you actually see them in person or did you only see the fire? Actually, you only seen … if they were on the move, you only seen the one or two in the whatsername, and then of course … they would settle in an ambush and that, well they would open up all the time. When people were … what did you with enemy bodies when you found them? I didn't do anything with them. You would just walk past? I walked past. They were dead and that was it and eh … the ones coming up behind, I don't know what they done with them. What did you do with your own injured and dead? The same thing. Just left them there? Left them there and headquarters had to do that part of it, unless you were bogged down like and stopped, but if you were going, you kept going. How did you sleep while you were on the trail? Did you carry bedding with you? Yes, we all of us had our little mosquito tent and that … blanket. How did you eat on the trail? Whenever we could and what we could. Were you eating rations you carried or did people bring things … bring food to you? Oh a bit of everything, 50 : 50. What rations did you carry with you? Oh [five-man extension kit], they had dry tucker in it, you know. What was it? What was it like? No good as far as I was concerned, I have tasted better. What was it exactly in the kit? Oh just a bit of fruit and a bit of … Dried fruit? Yeah Dried fruit Everything dried - it all tasted the same, but we ate it. Did you ever cook on the trail? No, no, I didn't do much cooking, no. But I done all right. Em, what was the weather like? Hot, very hot, damn hot. Wet? Oh yes, that is, when I say that, that eh hot, it is damn hot, but you still get rain. You get rain each day, it comes down about 4 o'clock or a bit before and if it is going to rain, it generally rains about that time. Did you have ways of keeping dry or did you just get wet and stay wet? We'd just get wet and stop wet. Were there health problems as a result of that? Eh, as far as I am concerned I eh … it didn't worry me a bit, you know, you could always dry your feet and that. If you had your feet mobile, you were pretty right. I did get one bout of malaria over there, early in the piece in New Guinea. I had to go into the hospital on the bank for a while and eh that … it never came back to me until I ended up in Heidelberg and eh … How did it affect you, how did the malaria affect you? Oh, you had no power … no … just lost all power and that, and wanted to sleep, but … How did they treat you? Oh, the same thing, atabrin and all the rest of it … atabrin and all the rest of it. 9 days I think it was. 9 days in hospital? I think so, yes And then back on the trail again? Back on the trail again. How did you catch up? Did you walk? No, no, I got a ride up to where I thought they were and eh got off there and reported in to the officer there. And eh … just went on. The trail from Aitape to Wewak. Describe what it looked like. Was it wide, wide enough for a truck? In places, yeah, in places no, I don't think so, but they hacked it all out after we eh … widened it all after we went through it, but eh … So you were cutting the trail as you went? Yeah, and down along the beach it was pretty right. And we were on the beach and not so much inland, so, actually we had eh … as far as the travelling was concerned, our section was all along the beach, but the others stretched inland, now they had it a bit tougher than we did, on the travelling part of it, because they had the hills and all the rest of that, all the way. How far would you go in a typical day? Oh that's hard to say too. It all depends. Depend on whether you met resistance? Yeah, and eh, yeah, all depends, you could put it like that What sort of contact did you have with the local people? Well, actually not a great deal, only the Fuzzy Wuzzies. They … 'cos the population, as they took the population, they sent the women all off on to a little island off Wewak, [Elfa?}, New Guinea. I don't know where abouts exactly, but there was no women there. Who did this? Powers to be I suppose. And eh … that was it. And we had eh … where we landed all the natives were friendly of course and we em em … on the trains, the carryin' trains, they would carry our, all our luggage if we were inland and they unloaded, or the ship unloaded, or anything like that. They'd cart the stuff up. Uha. Did you talk to them much? Oh yes, I had a little friend there in eh … carryin' biscuits and so forth, tins of biscuits and all the rest you see. They used to have three or four packs, you know, and he reckons I was all right. He used to … and also we used to, at times we used to spelling … from fighting, spelling … we would get the job of guarding the supplies. The supplies? Guarding the supplies as they … and we used to walk them for an hour, walk them for 15 minutes and have a smoke for 10 minutes. And this little fellow, it didn't matter where I was in the parade, where I was guardin', he would come back and sit down beside me, beside me, because he knew he was going to get a smoke off me, so, he was … he would be there for his smoke every, every … little fellow … and they were all like that, they were good. Were you a smoker before you went? Yeah, I smoked before I went, yeah. Were you a drinker before you went? Yeah, oh a bit of a drinker too, yeah. So were smokes and drinks and beer provided for you? No, they were not. You bought them? Bought em, yeah, Where from? When we could. Well I was … the beer ration of course, you only get them in a blue moon and sometimes you didn't get it, sometimes you got it, but we had a very good officer there and they looked after us pretty well. Right. You rested at night? Yeah, when we could, yes, yes. What did you talk about at night when you were just sitting around waiting for the next day? Well, you always had your own positions anyhow, so you know, its eh … wasn't much talking goin' on. And eh … all that lot are there in their sections and eh the section had their bren gun pit and all the rest of it dug and that. So you dug in each night? Um, and off again in the mornin' What about the people who weren't part of your unit? Did you see much of say the Red Cross or the Salvation Army? Yes, we seen a lot of the … well, the further, not so much the Red Cross and that, but it we seen a lot of em … Salvation Army? Salvos … . my best friend was a Salvation Army officer and he was eh … with us right through, we had the 4th and the 8th and seen a fair bit of him, which is a good thing when you start to dig in, he was always there to give a cup of coffee and … he was really good, but the Red Cross and that, I never seen much of those, not that they wasn't busy and that, but eh … Did you get much mail from home? Well, not a great deal. You would get two or three at a time or something like that. How often would that happen? Oh, I don't know, every now and again … Meaning several weeks would go by? Oh yeah, weeks would go by. Weeks or months? Weeks. A few weeks and then you would get all the mail in one go? Yeah. And you said you didn't write letters home yourself? Oh yes and I … well they knew what it was all about anyhow. The same letter and the same words and the same … I wasn't much of a letter writer, but they enjoyed it. Censored letters? Um? Were the letters censored? Yeah, they were censored. Did you get letters with pieces cut out of them? Yeah, now and again. Not many because Mum didn't know anything about the war anyhow. Did they send parcels from home? Oh yes, there were parcels every now and again. What sort of things came in parcels? Oh generally a cake or somethin' like that. Was that appreciated then? Oh too right. Yeah, but it didn't go far with a section. So you shared everything out? Oh yes, yeah. Did you have special close mates? Yes I did as a matter of fact. I eh … well I had one, he got killed, after I got wounded, [Dick Anderson] … he was in another company and … not another … another section of a company, and he got killed, I don't know when, but he got killed after I got wounded. I found out in the hospital that he'd died. So did you stay together? Did you camp at night together or were you in different units then? We were … Dickie and I were in different eh sections, different units. How did you sustain a friendship then? Well he was in the same company, only different platoon, wasn't a great deal, you know … he'd go that way and I'd go that way, but generally caught up at night, oh not every night of course, you couldn't go, but you would catch up every now and again. Describe to me one action that you can remember, not the one you were wounded in, but something that you can remember happening. I don't know. They all run in together? They run in together, yes. Ok, what was the countryside like? Well rough, hilly and .. Heavy jungle? Well as I said, jungle wasn't as heavy for us as it was for the others, but eh, it was heavy enough. Right down to the beach? Yeah, yeah. Ok, talk about the incident then when you were wounded? How did this happen? Have you got a very clear memory of it? When I was wounded? Yes. Yes, actually I have, but eh … Was it the first time you were wounded? Yeah. [not clear] We were in this section when the Nips must have had a look-out or somethin' like that eh on it … Anyhow a few shots were fired and eh they all went to ground of course to find out what was going on and all the rest of it. So you were going up a hill? Yeah, we were going up a hill and eh anyhow we all went to water and eh and then eh, we went up a bit further and we were called up, section leaders were called up and the hill was a funny hill, it was … as you came up here to the hill facin' that, as you went further up you were quite safe in the hills up in the … You got out of their sight? And got out of their sight, and whatsername, you'dwalk all around the hill here, down below, walk all around it and eh, they had a conference there and eh we were called up … section leaders were called up to the officers and eh they had a bit of a meetin' and I was actin' section leader, although I was a bren gunner and we had a bren gunner, meself, an Owen gunner and two riflemen, that's all we had in our section and eh ... I was called up, of course, and eh ... we were stretched out to go there and go there and there, which we did, and eh, when I come back I thought well, we'll be right, no action here because we were down in numbers and that - didn't have an officer, didn't have a corporal, didn't have anything much and anyhow we went up and Smithy there said to me, he said to the others he says, well you eh Jim Brown was one he said, "Here you go Jim take your section over there", and eh who was the other … , Jim Brown and must have had another section, but who? and … "take yours over there" and he said to me, he said "And Ted your job is to attack and capture." I said, "Oh, not me" he said "Yeah". Attack and capture what? The hills up there further up. The whole hill? The hill, yeah, we were to lead the attack.. And I said I've only got a couple, and he said "That's all right, you lead". So I went back and told the boys, the 3 boys, I said "And we have got to attack and capture" and I don't think they were very pleased about it, but that is how it went and anyhow … I lit out and eh I made one of the biggest mistakes I ever made and paid the penalty of it, but I eh … there was a log half way up, the old tree fallen down and I said oh, this'll do me, I'll get from there to there, just before I left, I'll get from there to there and then go on to there. Of course not knowing, or not thinking, my mind went a blank I think, knowin' that they are up here, the tree is here, I am there, that they are gonna fire down, have a range down behind. A line of sight to you. And so I went boom up to this tree, fallen down, to the end of it and propped down here with me Bren gun and of course they had a trench right across there we found out after and the joker here, I caught him out of the corner of me eye and I said "Oh you mug you, you are into it here" and I swung me gun around and of course by that time he hit me in the mouth here and eh … then me Lieut, he'd have followed me up and he propped down beside me, I am tryin' to tell him where the Jap was … he couldn't understand me of course . He said "Are you wounded?" and all this, whatsername, eh .. So you mean you were bleeding from the mouth? Oh yeah, all this, I was … .all that were blown away, the whole lot of it. Right. And so he said, "We'll get out, we'll get out", so I stripped the gun off and I had to run back that way to our officers and he went behind the gun, not understanding what I was sayin' or anythin', and he went behind the gun and when I was half way to that distance - only a few yards or so - I heard a shot, didn't know anythin' about it and eh … anyhow I got down here and they followed me down and put a dressin' on it, 2 dressings on this here, sent me off to the doctor, but eh they finished the attack and I think there was five wounded and six killed I think. We got pulled over pretty badly anyway, there was a whole lot of us, but eh. And the Lieut, just behind the gun, and he fired another shot down of course and the Lieut copped it through the head, where I copped it, and it killed him, yeah. And actually that probably saved me life, because I reckon I would have probably got another one on the way back, so, that is how war goes. Yes. You must have felt as though you were invincible to have got that far without being wounded? Well someone reckoned that, and someone eh said not long ago about the same thing. I think he thought that he couldn't get wounded and eh … I think it might have been somethin' like that too. But the fact I did get wounded was me own silly fault. Um, so the incident where you received the Victoria Cross, that was a few weeks before this? Yes, about 3 weeks before. Ok, can you … does that stay in your memory very vividly too? Oh, yes, it stays there. Can you tell us about that? Well, eh … it was more or less … I was on a … don't know how long that was … somethin' about the same as attacking up hill of course, it was always uphill. Sick and tired of … going up hill, and eh … and we were, I forget the name of Mount … I forget the name of the thing Mount … [Wirralee Mission] Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, (??35.2) Anyhow, it was uphill and of course everything there is uphill, so eh … but we are all attackin' this and the battalion was attacking it actually, but nothing was doing much and eh … it was just a … all thought it was a … Fairly routine? Routine, yes, and eh … kept going and eh … and then all of a sudden this woodpecker opened up and he put us all down to ground of course and eh where we went to ground, it was like, you just couldn't see anything at all and laying down on the ground I was pretty safe and that was it … couldn't see how things were goin', but anyhow, after a while that I thought to meself, "Well this is no good, I can't see anything to shoot at, I can't do anything", so actually I don't know why, I thought it would be better if I stood up and I had a couple of shots of firing me Bren gun at the target beforehand, you know, just puttin' it up and firing it here, down here, but doin' no good and then I stood up with the Bren gun and fired it, but it wasn't good enough either and anyhow I caught the rifle from one of the chappies there, just layin' down beside me, he threw it to me, and then I got up again and eh … and fixed the ones up on the Bren … on their gun and fixed them up and - lucky there, got a couple of them - and eh … and then another gun opened up on the left and, with a bit more luck I managed to put them silent and eh … and then of course the goin' was pretty easy then, we just went up and took it. Right, what does taking it mean … entail for you? You went up looking to see if there was anyone still alive in there? No, we just went straight through them. Straight through and over the top and on to the next one? On to the next and everything come good then. But eh, we had to get rid of those guns. Ok. When you came back to Australia, you went to Heidelberg for the treatment of your wound? Yeah. How long were you there? I was there about 12 months I think. Why did it take so long? I had to … see in the first place after I got back and they … out in the field, when they put the field dressin' on me, I went back … walked back to the doctor - I was still on me feet - I walked back to the doctor and eh he discovered then that the bullet that entered me jaw and blew out me jawbone and all the rest of it had gone again in here and then out there. You mean under your arm? And through under your arm? No. It hit the flesh here. Right, under the collarbone? Yeah, and went in and come out there? And came out under your arm pit? Yeah, came out there and hit me arm there. And then travelled along the side of your arm, the inside of your arm? Yeah, and the ones that put the dressin' on me here didn't know I had this. The ones who put the dressing on your face didn't know about the other injury? No, and that was me big trouble actually. Because when the blood circulated around, you know, on account of this blow, it was blowing it out here, blowing all So you were losing blood through the wound? Ok. So he found that out and he said, "This is going to hurt Ned" - I was known as Ned in the army - "Ned," he said, "This is going to hurt" and he just went down and sewed the both of them up … about that there I suppose. Sewed them up without anaesthetic? Yeah, just sewed them up and eh … that was it. So when I got back of course, they had to heal up this and that healed all right up and get that here was all right, but they discovered just here... In the jaw? … there was a seepage and it wouldn't stop and eh … you know, you stick it yourself, you know and I just felt it like that a couple of times and I … END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1 SIDE B, TAPE 1 It wouldn't stop and, you eh, you know you stick it yourself, you know, and I just felt it like that a couple of times and, round there and doctor came around, Dr Fitzpatrick eh Fitz … oh wait … Never mind, keep going. And he said, "What is that?" and it still wasn't ... I said "No, because there is somethin' in it". He said "Do you reckon?" I said "Yeah". And he said "[ not clear], yeah, you're right," and he got some forceps and he stuck in there and pulled it out, and there was a bit of a shell, he must have had a dirty rifle or somethin' and I got the shell in the jaw. And anyhow, they said well that's that, another week went past and I was still the same and I said to him, "There's some more in there," and eh he said, "Is there?" and I said "Yeah". And he poked around and he said yeah you are right and pulled it out and it was the same pattern and everything, double pattern. How that got there no one knows. Right, so that is why it took so long because there were was … Took so long to heal up. Reinfections. Um. And when it healed up of course they they had eh … They reconstructed the jaw? Yeah, they had, they put a thing around me head with a clip out here and brought the jaw through the gap when it was finished and both gaps so they could keep them level and then they just put it in and cut it off like sliced bread and put it in and clamped on the [not clear] and that was it. And eh … Dr Rank … Ok, so you stayed in the army then until you finished with your treatment at Heidelberg? Yeah, when the … I got into a row there too. I eh … Dr Rank said to me, he said "A perfect job Ned", he said, "A perfect job". He said, "But I want another week", because this here hadn't gone down to the level. The swelling on your cheek? It is a bone, not a swelling, it is just a bone there. He said, "I want to cut it down there", he said, "and shave it off level", he said, "A fortnight … you'll be right". I said, "No doc, I've had it". And I went, I seen the doc at Weary Dunlop's … Funeral? ..Memorial, when they were opening that and I didn't quite know how many [not clear] and all the rest of that and eh in the finish I fronted up and said "Are you Dr Rankin?" He said, "Yeah", he said, "Are you that bloody Kenna?" he said. And I said, "Yes", he said "You are the one that wouldn't let me finish your face". He said, "A perfect job," he said. So that was the end of it. And then you left the army? I left the army. I eh ..in the meantime in the hospital and that, all me teeth were closed and that - the ones I had left - and I come out at 5 stone something I think. Because of living on a liquid diet? Yeah. Um. And I was too light to pull 2 inch threads and all the rest of it because it was sewerage time, then too, Hamilton had just got sewerage in '39, and so I went to the council and asked them to put me on something easy till I get me weight back and they put me on as a gardener at the Oval down there, football oval and eh I took on that. And I liked it that way, out in the bush and everything. Liked it that much. And I, of course I joined the … played football for eh 40 … I was out of the army in '47 and eh I played football at Hamilton here till '60 I think and that was it. '47-'50. '47 - '50? Yeah, ok. And that was it. Em, did you join the RSL? Oh yeah, I joined the RSL. When did you join the RSL? Oh, more or less as soon as I got out. Why? Oh, I don't know. Just zealous. I thought it was the way to go, yeah. Can you explain that? What were you hoping that you would get from the RSL? Nothing actually, all I wanted at the time was mateship, I suppose. Right. And did you find that? Yeah, I found it, yeah, yeah. Good. But eh, I think that is about all I joined up for because I married Marj in '47 and had a family and all, and I thought me life was pretty full as far as I was concerned, so, that is all I wanted. You joined here in Hamilton? Yeah, yeah. Right, what facilities were there for the RSL in Hamilton when you joined? Well not a great deal, it was just eh … oh, it wasn't much and they said it wasn't much there and eh a few people after a meetin' … had a meetin' and raised a bit of money and that was it. Did you march on ANZAC Day? Eh? Did you march? Yeah, I marched every ANZAC Day. Here in Hamilton again? Well the majority in Hamilton because the kids were young and I was battlin' and money was a subject … you couldn't just nick off and eh so I marched here for oh a fair while. When did you hear that you had been awarded the Victoria Cross? Oh, that was in Heidelberg too, I was still in Heidelberg then - '45 and eh. How did you feel when you heard that news? Well, I didn't think it was true, I couldn't see it meself, I still can't, but that's beside the point. How was it awarded to you, I mean, the ceremony, where and when was that? It was here in Melbourne, whatsthename … ? Who presented it to you? The Governor. So you went down to Melbourne for that - big occasion? A big occasion? Yeah, yeah, big occasion. Your wife went too? I wasn't married then. Right. My mother, she wouldn't go, it was too big for her. And eh Marj was a city girl so I eh … Marj and Uncle Jack Cole and his wife came with me, so I went out there. Went … where to? Government House. Government House wasn't it love? Yes. Were you the only one being presented at the time? Yeah, um [not clear] Did you feel good about that? Yes, I did actually, yeah, um. Where is it kept? Eh, in the bank. Right. Do you get it out on special occasions? Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I go to a lot of ANZAC Day of course, but I wear it ANZAC Day to the morning march and I do a fair bit of soldiering routine … God I … school kids and march out parades and all that for the army and eh. All right. In Victoria and I do 2 or 3 of those a year, you know, and I always wear it then because I think it is a good thing for the young soldiers to see it and they seem to appreciate it and I think it is a good thing and actually it is a … for the soldiers that I wear it because, when you work it out, to get it you have got to have a lot of help around one way and another, you never know and it all adds up to the soldier. It is a soldier thing, so. You mean that you wouldn't have got it without the help of your mates at the time? No, I don't think so. I probably would've, but anyhow, you don't know. It is a soldier thing. I always say I wear it for the boys, some of the boys that died and all the rest of it, so it is their medal as well as mine, and eh, that's why eh the art gallery down there will get it when I go. How do you wear it? Where exactly does it go when you … amongst your medals? There. It takes precedence over the others? Over the others, yeah. Right. Have you noticed changes in ANZAC Day over time? No, I don't think so, no. I think they are all there more or less for the one thing and the rest to honour the dead actually. Do you have an opinion about young people marching for their fathers and … ? No, actually I have always said that when eh some of the bosses here have said eh that eh the young ones are not to march, I think that it's actually an honour for the soldier himself for the young ones to march because eh well they are our soldiers in the future, and I think it is a good job, I think it is marvellous meself. They say no, but eh. Ok, when you first came back, did you have a lot of trouble adjusting to just being a civilian again? I suppose you had the time in hospital that worked like a a buffer … No, I say, as you just said, I didn't actually have any worries whatsoever about anything. I settled in here just as I settled in the army and eh … but havin' that 12 months in hospital and to the … getting' out, see the others were getting' out a few months after I got wounded, getting' out, a lot of em just said, "No, Jack I am off" and never took any notice of anything, never, as far as pensions or jobs or that they just wanted out and got out, where I had a girlfriend and then a wife and then a family to settle down to straight away so, actually I was cheatin' on the lot. So you didn't, for instance, have nightmare and those sorts of problems that people had? No, never worried me once I … whatsoever … I just settled down and that was it. Because another thing, I always reckoned, I had a brother [not clear], he went in with me and we went right through together and of course they all said that they wouldn't let the soldier … the brothers be soldiers together and actually I went right through and Jack was … he had a lot more trouble than I did because he just went straight out and I think it played a bit on his nerves a bit but … otherwise no. Were there any bad memories? What would be the worst memory? Ah, you don't think of the worst in the army, but eh, I reckon the … well I suppose the worst job, and most frightening job I suppose you'd say, I don't know, was at Wewak itself. When we took Wewak the Japs had all Wewak covered with tunnels underneath, the whole thing was all tunnels. And the port was there , I'll show that in a minute, the port was there and all their stores and everything they had in these tunnels underneath Wewak Harbour and eh … I don't know how, when or why, but they got the … the drum, someone got the drum that a Yankee, could have been a Yankee Japanese, whatever his rank was, had committed hari kari in the tunnels and eh … our section got the job of goin' in and eh … And finding him. And findin' him, which was a bit hairy, you know, you were goin' in the dark. And did you find him? Yeah, we found him … took a gamble, found him, one had committed hari kari, and there were still like Japs in there, they reckon. So that was the worst memory? I reckon that would be the worst memory I had. What is the best memory? Oh I suppose when someone told me Wee … the war was over, I think that is the best one. Good. Where you when the war ended? In hospital, layin' down sleepin'. Marj went in to celebrate and eh … oh just after one of me operations, I don't know which one it was. I was in bed anyhow. It was … So that was a pretty good time? Too right, marvellous.
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Victorians at War - Oral History Project